Texas Jack Black
Single-Sixer
Flatgate , Thank you for the input I have put the info in my fileand will use them at my own risk 
T J B
T J B
The New Vaquero will take +P 45 Loads per Ruger(do not try)
- Thread starter tek4260
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COFFEE POT
Bearcat
The problem with the Hodgdon loads is they specify everything in CUP. There is no direct correlation between PSI and CUP. CUP is based on the amount of compression of a solid copper crusher .225" dia x .500" long. Each lot of crushers has it's own conversion sheet to PSI. It can be slightly different to massively different. So, a publication of CUP means nothing without its accompaning conversion table. I don't know why Hodgdon uses CUP. PSI is simpler and more accurate.
I'm sure their list is fairly close to PSI, but no guarantees. If it is, you are definitely playing with fire. Best case is you are routinely playing in the proof pressure range. It beats the snot out of a gun. While you may not get a catastrophic failure, you will definitely shorten the service life of your gun. Many years ago before I joined Ruger I had a beautiful three screw, short barrel .45 convertible Blackhawk. I saw the 'Ruger only' loads and went there only to find out a short time later my gun was getting looser by the month. Within 6 mos I had ruined a beautiful gun. I learned from that experience and have never done it since. When I joined Ruger and had contact with the folks who made the revolvers, they told me they sell a lot more guns when people load to those specs. They won't take it for any extended period of time. They won't exceed the ultimate tensile strength of the material, but they will go far beyond the yield strength and ruin the gun. Personally, I think a hot load in a .45 Colt is foolish. You want to run high pressures, get a .44 Mag or a .454. They're built for it. Would you push a beautiful old S&W or Colt? Of course not. Why do it with this?
I'm sure their list is fairly close to PSI, but no guarantees. If it is, you are definitely playing with fire. Best case is you are routinely playing in the proof pressure range. It beats the snot out of a gun. While you may not get a catastrophic failure, you will definitely shorten the service life of your gun. Many years ago before I joined Ruger I had a beautiful three screw, short barrel .45 convertible Blackhawk. I saw the 'Ruger only' loads and went there only to find out a short time later my gun was getting looser by the month. Within 6 mos I had ruined a beautiful gun. I learned from that experience and have never done it since. When I joined Ruger and had contact with the folks who made the revolvers, they told me they sell a lot more guns when people load to those specs. They won't take it for any extended period of time. They won't exceed the ultimate tensile strength of the material, but they will go far beyond the yield strength and ruin the gun. Personally, I think a hot load in a .45 Colt is foolish. You want to run high pressures, get a .44 Mag or a .454. They're built for it. Would you push a beautiful old S&W or Colt? Of course not. Why do it with this?
the fatman
Single-Sixer
Well this will save me money. I was thinking of a new model blackhawk in .45 as my next gun. But if a guy that worked for Ruger with inside info says Hodgdon and John Linebaugh just don't care if you blow up your gun. I'll just stay away from the whole mess. I mean coffee pot has a good point Ruger isn't endorseing reloads. The others don't care how long your gun holds up.
Texas Jack Black
Single-Sixer
the fatman":2fii0iyr said:
Do you really think that Hodgden and Linbaugh do not care and would list those loads? No gun maker endorses reloads and if you beleive that a SAAMI proof of 14,000 done on and OLD SAA made of iron that was tested in 1926 pertains to the massive Ruger made of modern steel than by all means shoot the SAAMI load.
Best Wishes
T J B
COFFEE POT
Bearcat
TJB - You obviously haven't paid a bit of attention to what has been said or you don't have a clue to understanding what I said. The Ruger is designed to operate at SAAMI spec and handle SAAMI proof loads, not those published by Linebaugh or Hodgdon. They are not safe!!! You want to blow your head off, that's fine. But don't you go preaching the loads are safe when you haven't a clue as to what's going on. There are too many newbies on here that are tring to learn safe reloading. You aren't helping.
Texas Jack Black
Single-Sixer
COFFEE POT":1p0v7hkf said:
I do believe Hodgden and Linbaugh did proof the loads and guns .I also said if one believes the 14,000 iron pot metal test than by all means follow it. I do respect your view on this but the current data shows a different finding than yours.
Let us agree to disagree and end this debate with saying that anyone who reloads has the responsibility to do his own research and is responsible for his actions.
I wish you well
T J B
The main problem that I see is:
No one lives in a vacuum.
Often, your actions CAN affect others.
When my Vaquero exploded, using Cor-Bon's +P 45colt;
I WAS VERY LUCKY that I was not hurt and that: NO ONE WAS STANDING TO MY LEFT.
Another thing that no one has mentioned, a gun with undersized cylinder throats might cause pressures to be much higher than published.
No one lives in a vacuum.
Often, your actions CAN affect others.
When my Vaquero exploded, using Cor-Bon's +P 45colt;
I WAS VERY LUCKY that I was not hurt and that: NO ONE WAS STANDING TO MY LEFT.
Another thing that no one has mentioned, a gun with undersized cylinder throats might cause pressures to be much higher than published.
Why guys want to test the limits is beyond me. is getting that extra 100 or so fps worth blowing your gun up over ? You need something more powerful ? Buy something more powerful or go to a rifle. I love 45 Colt but i dont use those Ruger only loads, what for ? To put stress on my gun ? To make me flinch more from the recoil ? I want something heavy duty i will go to .454 as someone else suggested.
When i was first starting out reloading i asked someone how hot i could safely load 38 special rounds. I was told if i wanted hotter than 38+p, then i should go buy a 357 and quit trying to hurt myself.
Some guys just like to learn the hard way i guess.
When i was first starting out reloading i asked someone how hot i could safely load 38 special rounds. I was told if i wanted hotter than 38+p, then i should go buy a 357 and quit trying to hurt myself.
Some guys just like to learn the hard way i guess.
P90
Single-Sixer
Some people never learn. When I was young I liked to Hot Rod Cars, until it dawned on me I was tearing them up. When I first started reloading years ago, I started hot rodded loads until I realized I was tearing up my guns. Some people change as I did, but you still find a few old people today, who will hotrod guns and cars, just because they can, and tear them up. I learned years ago that if you want more power, whether it be a Car, Tractor, or Gun, get a more powerful one, instead of hot rodding a smaller one beyond what it was made to handle. Coffee Pot and others gave some very good advice on Hot Rodding Loads, and it could keep some from ruining their guns, and possibly losing their's, or someone else's life.
Personally, I will stick with Taffin and Linebaugh as the high end with a .45 Ruger (Not the New Vaquero) . I don't load many high end loads as I like a lighter load for target practice, but I am very confident that the Ruger .45s will handle the higher loads. Now, when I say 'higher loads' I refer to spitting out a 255g bullet between 1000-1200 feet per second. Beyond that, I will reach for a .44mag. Don't make the .45 Colt something that it isn't, and don't limit it to 1800s specifications either for Rugers and other modern .45s. Again, this is a personal judgement call based on others that have gone before, all my reloading manuals, and my limited experience.
B.Roberts
Single-Sixer
Coffee Pot, I hear you and I do understand what you are saying. But, those gunscribes that you belittle, such as Brian Pierce, John Taffin, and Linebaugh, shoot much more than most of us do. Their reputaions and careers are on the line. That alone would not make me shoot loads that they suggested. However, "Ruger-only" loads have been used for many years and have been demonstrated to be safe in large frame Rugers. Testing was done by Linebaugh and White Labratories. The .45colt Blackhawks blew up at 80% of the pressure needed to blow up the same gun in .44mag. Loading the .45colt to 80% the pressure allowed for the .44mag provides the exact same safety margin.
Saying that shooting "Ruger-only" loads shorten the guns life, while probably true, is slightly misleading. Service life with those loads ought to be the same as the same gun in .44mag. While shooting only .44specials in a .44mag and only cowbow loads in the .45colt may extend the life of the gun, I doubt I will ever be able to afford to shoot enough of them to find out. I have shot many Ruger-only loads out of both my Vaquero and Accusport Bisley. Both guns are just as tight as when new. The Vaquero (that I have had since 1994) has less end shake than my Bisley (purchased last year) and has fired many more "Ruger-only" loads than the Bisley. Both have about the same amount of rotational slop.
I very much appreciate all of those that are trying to clarify the difference between the Vaquero and the New Vaquero. The 30,000cup Hogdon loads and 25,000psi Speer loads are intended for large frame Rugers and center contenders. They have also proven safe in Freedom arms revolvers and Colt Anacondas. One of the previous posters is courting disaster if he is using those loads in the New Vaquero. I am still unclear as to which gun he is saying he has.
I don't have a New Vaquero yet, and probably won't get one. If I did have one, my loading, storage, and marking practices would have to change. Those hot loads need to stay far away from smaller framed guns.
Texas Jack Black, the warm 17,000psi loads that you are using aren't SAAMI spec, as 14,000psi/cup is the only approved spec for the .45colt. I, however, don't think you are courting disaster with your New Vaquero. Loads in that pressure range have been used in modern strength steel, small frame single action revolvers for a long time with no adverse effects. It sounds like you have been reading up on back issues of Handloader magazine. I do trust the info Brian Pierce provides. I think he is one of the most knowledgeable and readable writers out there. However, take that with a grain of salt. I appear to be in the minority here. There are very knowledgeable people, with more reloading and shooting experience than I have, on this forum that disagree with me about warmer than SAAMI spec .45colt loads. Is that 270gr bullet that you are using the RCBS 270SAA? That bullet is turning into one of my absolute favorites for standard and warm loads. I prefer the the heavier wfn bullets that seat out a little further in the case for the upper end Ruger-only loads.
Ruger, along with every other manufacturer that I know of, recommends that only factory ammo be used in their guns. All of us that roll our own, are on our own and have to understand and accept the consequences of our actions.
Saying that shooting "Ruger-only" loads shorten the guns life, while probably true, is slightly misleading. Service life with those loads ought to be the same as the same gun in .44mag. While shooting only .44specials in a .44mag and only cowbow loads in the .45colt may extend the life of the gun, I doubt I will ever be able to afford to shoot enough of them to find out. I have shot many Ruger-only loads out of both my Vaquero and Accusport Bisley. Both guns are just as tight as when new. The Vaquero (that I have had since 1994) has less end shake than my Bisley (purchased last year) and has fired many more "Ruger-only" loads than the Bisley. Both have about the same amount of rotational slop.
I very much appreciate all of those that are trying to clarify the difference between the Vaquero and the New Vaquero. The 30,000cup Hogdon loads and 25,000psi Speer loads are intended for large frame Rugers and center contenders. They have also proven safe in Freedom arms revolvers and Colt Anacondas. One of the previous posters is courting disaster if he is using those loads in the New Vaquero. I am still unclear as to which gun he is saying he has.
I don't have a New Vaquero yet, and probably won't get one. If I did have one, my loading, storage, and marking practices would have to change. Those hot loads need to stay far away from smaller framed guns.
Texas Jack Black, the warm 17,000psi loads that you are using aren't SAAMI spec, as 14,000psi/cup is the only approved spec for the .45colt. I, however, don't think you are courting disaster with your New Vaquero. Loads in that pressure range have been used in modern strength steel, small frame single action revolvers for a long time with no adverse effects. It sounds like you have been reading up on back issues of Handloader magazine. I do trust the info Brian Pierce provides. I think he is one of the most knowledgeable and readable writers out there. However, take that with a grain of salt. I appear to be in the minority here. There are very knowledgeable people, with more reloading and shooting experience than I have, on this forum that disagree with me about warmer than SAAMI spec .45colt loads. Is that 270gr bullet that you are using the RCBS 270SAA? That bullet is turning into one of my absolute favorites for standard and warm loads. I prefer the the heavier wfn bullets that seat out a little further in the case for the upper end Ruger-only loads.
Ruger, along with every other manufacturer that I know of, recommends that only factory ammo be used in their guns. All of us that roll our own, are on our own and have to understand and accept the consequences of our actions.
COFFEE POT
Bearcat
I've said my piece. Some have listened, some haven't. As has been often said here, anytime you exceed SAAMI spec you are taking a chance. My background with Ruger and my personal loading experiences over the years confirms that. I'm out of here.
B.Roberts
Single-Sixer
Thanks for sharing your expertise with us. It is appreciated.
Many thanks, CP.
Some of us appreciate your expertise and experience, and your willingness to share it with us.
It has not been a futile effort.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Some of us appreciate your expertise and experience, and your willingness to share it with us.
It has not been a futile effort.
:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
Hi,
With gratitude and appreciation for all Coffee Pot has tried to share with us:
Mark Twain has been quoted as saying "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
I had a professor in college who repeatedly railed at us to "check the credentials" of a speaker before believing what he has to say. In other words, if a guy's talking about medicine, and he's a doctor, he's gonna be a lot more credible than a guy who's a civil engineer. Both are educated, knowledgeable people, but that doesn't make them experts in the other's field.
In the gun world, we have manufacturers and engineers who work with and test these things daily tell us "Don't do this" (distilled in this thread to mean hotrodding the .45 Colt.) Then we've got gun rag writers who've never built a gun (and guys who MODIFY someone else's) telling us "Go ahead and do this, it's ok!"
Now, since years of observation leads me to believe the good professor never lied to me, and mfrs generally know exactly what grade of product they produce, I know whose advice I'm gonna take.
But for those who insist on proving once again that Mark Twain was seldom wrong in his assessments of human nature, well, good luck. If someone reading this is one of those, I hope the only person you ever hurt is yourself.
Rick C
With gratitude and appreciation for all Coffee Pot has tried to share with us:
Mark Twain has been quoted as saying "A lie can travel halfway around the world while the truth is still putting on its shoes."
I had a professor in college who repeatedly railed at us to "check the credentials" of a speaker before believing what he has to say. In other words, if a guy's talking about medicine, and he's a doctor, he's gonna be a lot more credible than a guy who's a civil engineer. Both are educated, knowledgeable people, but that doesn't make them experts in the other's field.
In the gun world, we have manufacturers and engineers who work with and test these things daily tell us "Don't do this" (distilled in this thread to mean hotrodding the .45 Colt.) Then we've got gun rag writers who've never built a gun (and guys who MODIFY someone else's) telling us "Go ahead and do this, it's ok!"
Now, since years of observation leads me to believe the good professor never lied to me, and mfrs generally know exactly what grade of product they produce, I know whose advice I'm gonna take.
But for those who insist on proving once again that Mark Twain was seldom wrong in his assessments of human nature, well, good luck. If someone reading this is one of those, I hope the only person you ever hurt is yourself.
Rick C
flatgate
Hawkeye
Well said Rick. This has been a very interesting discussion.
flatgate
flatgate
Texas Jack Black
Single-Sixer
Very informative discussion and a wealth differing opinions. All well taken
Now I have to keep my FA Model 97 in 45 Colt at 14,000 after all ,that is what SAAMI says
T J B
Now I have to keep my FA Model 97 in 45 Colt at 14,000 after all ,that is what SAAMI says
T J B
the fatman
Single-Sixer
Yeah I hope nobody is mad I haven't been signed on for very long but I have been going to this forum for quite awhile and you all seem like a great bunch of people.It was going to be a good while any way. But I was leaning towards a 45 because of Ruger only load versatility. I probably should be smart and get something cheaper to feed anyway. Hope you all stay friends and have a good life.
Hope you all stay friends and have a good life.Naw, just we all have our own 'opinions' and reasons for them ... but what does make me 'mad' is when someone tries to 'impose' there 'understanding' on me. Like tell me what cars/trucks I can buy or what I can shoot and not shoot, etc. That is upsetting. The rational discussion above was just educational and good points of view
.jmac
Bearcat
So can I shoot Winchesters Super X 225grain silvertip hp. My shooters bible indicates it's around 900fps and 400+ ftlbs of energy???? Mostly for keeping in the home for defense.
Just got my New Vaquero ss 5.5" today and can't wait to shoot it.
thanks Jamie
Just got my New Vaquero ss 5.5" today and can't wait to shoot it.
thanks Jamie
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