The New Vaquero will take +P 45 Loads per Ruger(do not try)

[pvtschultz]

The Blackhawk and Vaquero are as stong as they are because they were offered in the 44 Remington Magnum cartrige; not because Ruger likes to waste money. Luckily for many of us, they also offered those very same revolvers in the 45 Colt. Linebaugh et al took the liberty to do a little research and testing to establish the so called "Ruger Only" load for the 45 Colt. You'll notice that some manufacturers hold this level to ~24,000 psi while some will go up to +30,000 psi. You can bet your ass that those publishing +30,000 psi also researched the hell out of those numbers before publishing them in THEIR books, especially in this court culture that we have in America.

WHen you are ready to guarantee the safety of those following your data and be willing to pay for the damages for anything bad that happens from using your data, then publish your own book and hire a good lawyer (maybe do the that in the reverse order). Until then, you and your digits are at your OWN risk.

 

[COFFEE POT]

Interesting last few posts ,if we listen to the manufactures we would not use reloads. Most, if not all gun makers suggest using NO reloaded ammo .
Ruger would not need to make its guns so strong they could cut back on metal and save money.We could sell all our reloading stuff and most gun mags could just go away there would be no need for reloading material ,reloading manuals etc. and men like ELMER KEITH would be reduced to foolish shooters who take risks.
Was ELMER KEITH A CLUCKING MORON ? I THINK NOT

BEST WISHES
T J B

I detect a little bitterness in your post. I'm not trying to change your mind. Just let me tell you where I'm coming from so you understand. BTW, I've been loading my own for about 45 years now. According to industry statistics, handloaders make up about 4% of gun owners. The majority of handloaders load for reasons of accuracy, economy, wildcats/oddball cartridges, etc. There are also those who try to push the limit of standard cartridges. If I understand you correctly, you want the manufacturers to cater to the small percentage of those who wish to push the limits rather than the majority who don't load or don't care to push the limits. The loading books of today are based on SAAMI spec in most guns. There is one I contribute to, so this is a known fact. The bottom line is the manufacturers make guns to operate at the standard pressures to which the ammunition industry loads. This satisfies over 96% of the shooting populace. You would have the industry overbuild all the guns just to satisfy those who want to push the edge. Do you want all guns to be made to hold down even the largest dia calibers to 50, 100, 200ksi? It's not practical when the vast majority shoot factory ammunition. Elmer was not an idiot, but he knew he was pushing the limit and always stated as much. You can load at any level you choose as long as you understand the guns are designed for a specific limit and if you exceed it, you are abusing the gun and taking chances. As I said before, if you want to push .45 Colt, do it in a .454 Casull revolver. They are designed for high pressure. Manufacturers are not going to overdesign every gun just to satisfy the small percentage of handloaders who don't wish to stay within industry performance standards. Gun manufacturers don't like handloading only because there are no controls over how ammunition is loaded. You know, I'm sure, there are folks out there who shouldn't be handloading. Their loads aren't safe for one reason or another. Most of the time it's just poor loading practice. You stated your loads are around 17ksi. How do you know that? Did you send them to H.P. White labs for analysis or are you going by a book someplace that gives generic data? The average handloader has no idea of his pressures except what the manuals say which is generic data, most often derived from empirical testing in a SAAMI standard barrel. Those that list a specific gun are just a guess unless the gun was modified to accept a transducer. Just don't criticize the industry for producing a product to satisfy the majority rather than the minority.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Somewhere earlier in this post, I mentioned a gentleman from here in SoCal who lost a hand in some kind of a handgun "event" such as we've suggested could happen by feeding one's gun a steady diet of overloads.

He had a new hand transplanted a few weeks ago, only the 3rd or 4th one done in this country.

I didn't know it when I first read the stories in the paper, but it turns out I have one of those "five degrees of separation" kinds of associations w/ him, and I got an e-mail Friday from my "first degree" contact: he'd just returned home to California from the State where the operation and rehab were done.

WITHOUT the new hand...

That's right, the procedure didn't work and they had to take it.

Just something to think about if one wishes to push the envelope. The human body's not like your car where you just slap on new parts when you smack it up, so if you mess up, the results may be rather long lasting.

I'm sure this fellow didn't go out that one fateful morning expecting to come home crippled up for life...

Rick C

 

[Texas Jack Black]

The Blackhawk and Vaquero are as stong as they are because they were offered in the 44 Remington Magnum cartrige; not because Ruger likes to waste money. Luckily for many of us, they also offered those very same revolvers in the 45 Colt. Linebaugh et al took the liberty to do a little research and testing to establish the so called "Ruger Only" load for the 45 Colt. You'll notice that some manufacturers hold this level to ~24,000 psi while some will go up to +30,000 psi. You can bet your ass that those publishing +30,000 psi also researched the hell out of those numbers before publishing them in THEIR books, especially in this court culture that we have in America.

WHen you are ready to guarantee the safety of those following your data and be willing to pay for the damages for anything bad that happens from using your data, then publish your own book and hire a good lawyer (maybe do the that in the reverse order). Until then, you and your digits are at your OWN risk.

Well said ,As soon as anyone buys a gun and uses reloads he is own his own.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

Hi,

Somewhere earlier in this post, I mentioned a gentleman from here in SoCal who lost a hand in some kind of a handgun "event" such as we've suggested could happen by feeding one's gun a steady diet of overloads.

He had a new hand transplanted a few weeks ago, only the 3rd or 4th one done in this country.

I didn't know it when I first read the stories in the paper, but it turns out I have one of those "five degrees of separation" kinds of associations w/ him, and I got an e-mail Friday from my "first degree" contact: he'd just returned home to California from the State where the operation and rehab were done.

WITHOUT the new hand...

That's right, the procedure didn't work and they had to take it.

Just something to think about if one wishes to push the envelope. The human body's not like your car where you just slap on new parts when you smack it up, so if you mess up, the results may be rather long lasting.

I'm sure this fellow didn't go out that one fateful morning expecting to come home crippled up for life...

Rick C

I agree that one does not want to inflict harm to themself or anyone else due to careless reloading or over loading a gun. I follow my guidelines and ALL my loads and guns have been pressure tested for the loads I shoot.

Best Wishes

T J B

 

[COFFEE POT]

Hi,

Somewhere earlier in this post, I mentioned a gentleman from here in SoCal who lost a hand in some kind of a handgun "event" such as we've suggested could happen by feeding one's gun a steady diet of overloads.

He had a new hand transplanted a few weeks ago, only the 3rd or 4th one done in this country.

I didn't know it when I first read the stories in the paper, but it turns out I have one of those "five degrees of separation" kinds of associations w/ him, and I got an e-mail Friday from my "first degree" contact: he'd just returned home to California from the State where the operation and rehab were done.

WITHOUT the new hand...

That's right, the procedure didn't work and they had to take it.

Just something to think about if one wishes to push the envelope. The human body's not like your car where you just slap on new parts when you smack it up, so if you mess up, the results may be rather long lasting.

I'm sure this fellow didn't go out that one fateful morning expecting to come home crippled up for life...

Rick C

I agree that one does not want to inflict harm to themself or anyone else due to careless reloading or over loading a gun. I follow my guidelines and ALL my loads and guns have been pressure tested for the loads I shoot.

Best Wishes

T J B

Who tested/measured your loads and where did you get the design criteria for your guns to have them analyzed? You don't know if a gun is safe unless you know the design parameters. Proof testing is a one shot only test. It doesn't reflect fatigue factors. I have yet to come across a manufacturer who will release design data.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

All my loads come out of reloading manuals and as to the strength of the guns .I buy US made guns and all are pressure tested by law and they all have a 100 % safety factor, so do the math .Just as John Linbaugh and others have done .

The loads I shoot in my Proof tested American firearms work for my guns but may not be safe in yours.

I wish you well

T J B

 

[COFFEE POT]

First of all, there is no pressure test required by law. SAAMI is a voluntary standard. I don't know what you mean by a 100% safety factor either. The average American made gun is designed so the maximum proof load does not exceed the minimum yield strength of the material. But that doesn't hold true for all of them. There are American manufacturers who do not proof test their guns. You say, do the numbers. I have, many times. I spent 15 years designing guns for Ruger. I know exactly how it is done. I know Ruger's design criteria quite well.

Loading manuals are based on SAAMI pressures in SAAMI test barrels for the most part. If you are loading to your manual, you are staying within SAAMI specs unless your gun has a characteristic that increases the pressure over a SAAMI test barrel. Very few ammunition manufacturers actually load to SAAMI spec. They load below it so the lot variation doesn't exceed SAAMI spec. That's why I gave the MPLM and MPSM numbers in addition to the max average pressure.

Bottom line is that if the minimum yield strength of your cylinder material is , say, 165,000 psi, then the maximum allowable stress on the cylinder material cannot exceed that at maximum proof pressure which for the .45 Colt is 21,700 psi. I'm not going to tell you what the design criteria is as that is Ruger propritary information.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

Yes SAAMI is voluntary but if any US maker wants to sell to the military or to overseas countries they must meet CIP for Europe and SAAMI for the US. CIP is required by LAW in the 14 member countries. So Ruger sells to the military and to foreign countries therefore all their firearms are proof tested to meet SAAMI and CIP. So once again we agree to disagree.


I wish you well

T J B

 

[COFFEE POT]

Once again I must disagree. For military, yes, a proof test is part of the military requirement as various other DoD requirements including endurance tests. For European export, conformation to CIP is not required. We sold many guns to various European countries that met SAAMI spec but not CIP. Ruger guns are designed to SAAMI spec, not CIP. Ruger has had very few contracts with the military and the last one for Iraq was for P95 pistols. They were designed for SAAMI, not CIP. Guns do not have to meet SAAMI spec for sales in the US, nor do they have to meet CIP for export to Europe. European made guns do have to meet CIP specs for Europe, but do not have to meet SAAMI specs for export to the US.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

So Ruger guns DO meet SAAMI and MUST be tested for military sales and European guns MUST meet CIP by LAW ,so all european guns that are sold in the US meet CIP and all Rugers are proof tested which means the NV was proof tested .All this proofing was caused by one or more laws that directly or indirectly led to the testing.

I wish you well

T J B

PS are you suggesting that the 45 blackhawk has a limit of 21,700?

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Actually, he said that Ruger proofs its .45 Colt guns at 21,700 PSI.

Ruger "rates" their guns at SAAMI pressure, which for .45 Colt is 14,000 PSI and for .357 Magnum is 35,000 PSI.

And of course there is a huge difference between "load pressure" and "material stress".

But you knew that, right?

 

[COFFEE POT]

So Ruger guns DO meet SAAMI and MUST be tested for military sales and European guns MUST meet CIP by LAW ,so all european guns that are sold in the US meet CIP and all Rugers are proof tested which means the NV was proof tested .All this proofing was caused by one or more laws that directly or indirectly led to the testing.

I wish you well

T J B

PS are you suggesting that the 45 blackhawk has a limit of 21,700?

I always said Ruger guns were designed to operate at SAAMI spec. Any dealings with the military require guns to meet DoD spec, not SAAMI. European made guns that are sold in Europe must conform to CIP, but European exports to the US do not have to conform to either CIP or SAAMI. US exports to Europe do not have to conform to either SAAMI or CIP.

Of course all Ruger guns are proof tested. Any reputable manufacturer proof tests their guns. But it is not a requirement for marketing domestically or export. The military has their own set of specs. Commercial guns, even of the same type such as the Beretta M92/M9 service pistol are not identical. Mil-Spec guns are not required in the commercial market and are more costly to produce.

When I said the Ruger guns were proof tested and gave the specs, I said the min proof pressure for the .45 Colt was 16,900 psi and the max proof pressure was 21,700 psi. A one-time exposure to a high pressure is significantly different than a steady diet of high pressure loads. The purpose of a proof test is to find material defects which may lead to a catastrophic failure. It does not determine the operating pressure of the gun. It merely says that if the gun will hold this pressure one time, it will safely operate at the normal max allowable operating pressure which in this case is 14,000 psi. If you want to load to 21,700 psi, be my guest. Just please stay away from others when you shoot the gun. It won't last very long at that pressure. Normally, the service life using proof loads is about 10 rds. If you want to buy a new gun every 10 rds, go for it.

Well, I've accomplished my purpose. You said your gun was strong enough to handle a steady diet of low proof pressure loads, in the 17,000 psi range. If your gun is a Ruger, it was designed around SAAMI specs and by your admission, you load to book spec which is based on SAAMI pressures. Therefore, you are shooting SAAMI pressure ammo in a SAAMI spec designed gun. As it should be. My purpose was to stop any misinformation regarding the accepted use of higher than SAAMI pressure ammo in Ruger guns from reaching the newbies. Although you claim your guns are stronger and your ammo hotter, it works out that your guns are SAAMI strength and you are shooting SAAMI spec ammo. As it should be.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

Actually, he said that Ruger proofs its .45 Colt guns at 21,700 PSI.

Ruger "rates" their guns at SAAMI pressure, which for .45 Colt is 14,000 PSI and for .357 Magnum is 35,000 PSI.

And of course there is a huge difference between "load pressure" and "material stress".

But you knew that, right?

YUP, I know that 14,000 is the magic number That is why this thread was started.


T J B

 

[Texas Jack Black]

This thread has been very helpful . So do you say that ALL Blackhawks and large frame Vaqueros only use loads of 14,000?and what is your take on those who put 30,000 loads in their Ruger blackhawks?

THANK YOU
T J B

 

[Ale-8(1)]

I don't recommend or suggest anything.

Ruger suggests that no greater than 14,000 PSI loads be used in .45 Colt chambers, 35,000 PSI loads in .357 Magnum chambers, and even 18,500 PSI +P loads in .38 Special chambers . . . with similar appropriate loads as defined by SAAMI for other chamberings.

Pretty simple, really.

We are all free to do what we wish so long as we're willing to accept the consequences of our actions. Acting on sound data is a really good idea, however. If you extrapolate, you're on your own.

All JMHO, of course.

 

[Texas Jack Black]

I don't recommend or suggest anything.

Ruger suggests that no greater than 14,000 PSI loads be used in .45 Colt chambers, 35,000 PSI loads in .357 Magnum chambers, and even 18,500 PSI +P loads in .38 Special chambers . . . with similar appropriate loads as defined by SAAMI for other chamberings.

Pretty simple, really.

We are all free to do what we wish so long as we're willing to accept the consequences of our actions. Acting on sound data is a really good idea, however. If you extrapolate, you're on your own.

All JMHO, of course

We agree on what Ruger suggests.It is the data that seems to be in question That 14,000 number that keeps being thrown around was used back when Iron and pot metal was the norm
Shoot straight and shoot often

I wish you well

T J B

 

[Rick Courtright]

and what is your take on those who put 30,000 loads in their Ruger blackhawks?

Hi,

My personal take is this: if you're gonna shoot that kind of stuff, do it FAR away from everyone else.

It's no fun taking an innocent bystander to the ER who got hit by shrapnel caused when some "CLUCKING MORON" blew up his gun.

I've done it... at our range. Then written larger checks for our insurance afterwards. Fortunately we avoided legal action.

Think of water: it runs downhill and the guy w/ the leaky pipe at the top of hill might not be the guy who ends up w/ the flooded yard. The results of stupidity sometimes follow the same model.

Rick C

 

[COFFEE POT]

This thread has been very helpful . So do you say that ALL Blackhawks and large frame Vaqueros only use loads of 14,000?and what is your take on those who put 30,000 loads in their Ruger blackhawks?

THANK YOU
T J B

The .45 Colt has the thinnest wall. The next in line is the .44 Mag in the old Vaquero and Blackhawk. I'm sure the thinnest portion of the .44 Mag wall will hold SAAMI loads. Whether the chamber wall thickness was calculated for the .45 Colt or the .44 Mag I don't know, but I would expect it would be a wash either way. The .44 is higher pressure, but has a thicker wall. I'd have to run the numbers again. I haven't run the numbers on revolvers in years. I did it when the new Vaquero came out and it was fine with SAAMI based .45 Colt specs but it wasn't acceptable for the .44 Mag. They could have offered it in .44 Spl for CAS, but they didn't. Probably afraid someone would open it up to accept a Mag. With the .45 Colt length cylinder it would be possible.

The SAAMI numbers are based on the strength of old guns, no argument there. But, all that means is that guns made with new materials don't have to have as much 'iron or pot metal' to hold them down thus allowing the manufacturers to make a lighter weight gun with sufficient strength.

From what I know of the design criteria Ruger uses, those who run their loads to 30ksi or even 20ksi are asking for trouble. The guns aren't designed for it. They can thank an engineer who was very conservative in his calcs that they still have all their fingers and both eyes. I only hope they don't try to do that as a steady diet. How they can even publish that sort of information is beyond me. But, I've seen articles that list handloads for the .30-30 that they claim will come close to .308 ballistics, too. That's one I'd want to stay away from, also.

 

[flatgate]

Coffee Pot,

Boy, oh Boy, don't surf over to Linebaugh's or Taffin's loading data or even think about taking a peek at the .45 Colt pages in Hogdgon's Data Manual #26!

I guess me and a couple thousand of my friends are really lucky.....but I've yet to hear of any trouble occurring using "properly" assembled loads from the above sources.

Here's a "cut and paste"
325 GR. CPB LFN PB Hodgdon H4227 .452" 1.680" 20.0 1053 22,300 CUP 23.0 1189 28,000 CUP
325 GR. CPB LFN PB Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.680" 21.0 1109 18,100 CUP 24.0 1266 27,400 CUP
325 GR. CPB LFN PB Hodgdon Lil'Gun .452" 1.680" 17.0 1061 20,700 CUP 20.5 1235 29,700 CUP
335 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H4227 .452" 1.680" 20.0 1011 21,100 CUP 22.5C 1155 28,300 CUP
335 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.680" 20.5 1109 19,200 CUP 23.5 1240 28,000 CUP
335 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon Lil'Gun .452" 1.680" 17.0 1052 20,100 CUP 20.0 1206 29,600 CUP
360 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H4227 .452" 1.680" 19.5 1004 21,100 CUP 22.0C 1167 29,800 CUP
360 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon H110 .452" 1.680" 18.0 1012 20,200 CUP 21.0 1151 28,300 CUP
360 GR. CPB LFN GC Hodgdon Lil'Gun .452" 1.680" 15.5 984 22,400 CUP 18.0 1131 29,700 CUP

The underlined bullet is my favorite. I routinely load 22.0 gr. of the listed propellent. Am I truthfully playing with fire here?

Here's the tool of choice..

flatgate