Webinar on 'Church' Safety

[blume357]

This past Thursday I sat through a webinar presented by Home Land Security on 'Church' safety. I use the word church because most of you will relate to that over the term 'faith based institutions or places of worship'. I have to be a bit critical because it was mostly a lot of department heads of different government agencies giving a speech about what they do.... but a bit of it was educational. Somewhere near the end I actually took a screen shot of one of the slides.... some of you might not understand but this is a reality that most mass shootings are not spur of the moment events but are planned out and in looking back the perpetrator actually in different ways indicated what they were going to do. Here is the slide:

Note the item at the 5 o'clock position. Don't take offense, this is real. And realize 'they' are talking about a number of 'tells' if you will that indicate a potential threat not just the acquisition of guns / weapons but other changes too. In this webinar they also mentioned that it is expected there will be a rise in specific attacks not only because of the Israel / Hamas conflict but the up coming election. My only reason for posting this is not to start a political debate but to hope you church going folks will be vigilant. Unfortunately there are nut jobs out there and they are on both sides of the fence.

 

[pisgah]

Seems there is a problem recognizing that a kid who makes repeated violent threats against his school or church is a potential problem. Thank goodness, the Gov has created a chart...

Now, what kind of chart do they have that shows what to do about it, and how to get responsible people to act on the knowledge?

 

[GunnyGene]

This past Thursday I sat through a webinar presented by Home Land Security on 'Church' safety. I use the word church because most of you will relate to that over the term 'faith based institutions or places of worship'. I have to be a bit critical because it was mostly a lot of department heads of different government agencies giving a speech about what they do.... but a bit of it was educational. Somewhere near the end I actually took a screen shot of one of the slides.... some of you might not understand but this is a reality that most mass shootings are not spur of the moment events but are planned out and in looking back the perpetrator actually in different ways indicated what they were going to do. Here is the slide:


View attachment 54523
Note the item at the 5 o'clock position. Don't take offense, this is real. And realize 'they' are talking about a number of 'tells' if you will that indicate a potential threat not just the acquisition of guns / weapons but other changes too. In this webinar they also mentioned that it is expected there will be a rise in specific attacks not only because of the Israel / Hamas conflict but the up coming election. My only reason for posting this is not to start a political debate but to hope you church going folks will be vigilant. Unfortunately there are nut jobs out there and they are on both sides of the fence.

That's all well and good, but unless there are armed people in the church, etc., it's all just a Powerpoint presentation and wish list. As for the item at 5 o'clock, that is a very broad subjective assessment that could encompass many millions of gun owners.

There's also a well documented 400year long history of churches, etc., providing for their own defense; regardless of what Hollywood, and various pastors, preachers, and priests might try to convince people of.

MS is more proactive on this potential threat scenario than many other States.

45-9-171. Mississippi Church Protection Act

(a) The governing body of any church or place of worship may establish a security program by which designated members are authorized to carry firearms for the protection of the congregation of the church or place of worship, including resisting any unlawful attempt to commit a violent felony listed in Section 97-3-2(1) upon a member or other attendee in the church or place of worship or on the immediate premises thereof. A church or place of worship may establish a security program that meets the requirements of subsection (2)(b) of this section, and a member of the security program shall be immune from civil liability for any action taken by a member of the security program if the action in question occurs during the reasonable exercise of and within the course and scope of the member's official duties as a member of the security program for the church or place of worship. For purposes of this section, "church" or "place of worship" means only a bona fide duly constituted religious society, ecclesiastical body, or any congregation thereof.
(b) In order to be eligible for the immunity provided in this section:
(i) The program at a minimum must require that each member of the program possesses a firearms license issued under Section 45-9-101 and has completed an instructional course in the safe handling and use of firearms as described in Section 97-37-7, or a law enforcement officer as defined in Section 45-6-3, or is a qualified retired law enforcement officer as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 926C(c). The program may also include one or more persons with law enforcement or military background who may assist the church or place of worship in training of the members of the program and who shall be required to have a license, or be a law enforcement officer or qualified retired law enforcement officer, whichever is applicable, as described in this paragraph (i) in order to be eligible for immunity;
(ii) The qualified retired law enforcement officers as defined in 18 U.S.C. Section 926C(c) or the Mississippi firearm license numbers of the members who are designated by the church or place of worship to serve in the security program must be spread upon the minutes of the body or otherwise noted in writing at the time of the member's designation if the body does not maintain minutes, and this written record must be made available to law enforcement upon request during the course of an investigation after any incident in which the member used a firearm while acting as a member of the security program; and
(iii) The member of the program who is claiming immunity under the provisions of this section must have met the requirements of this paragraph (b).
(3) A person who is indicted or charged with a violation of criminal law while acting as a member of a security program of a church or place of worship may assert as a defense, in addition to any other defense available, that at the time of the action in question, the person was a member of a church body or place of worship security program, was then actually engaged in the performance of the person's duties as a member of the program, and had met the requirements of this section at the time of the action in question.

 

[blume357]

you down load a brochure for that and they have a couple dozen of different ones.... I lost count of the different department heads that presented stuff at this thing......

 

[blume357]

Goodly number of years ago when my church first formed a safety team we had a sheriffs deputy come and make a presentation... he was adamant that we did not need to carry because shooting at an active shooter would probably cause someone else to get hit.....

I did not say anything, but the problem with his 'logic' is this active shooter is unloading an AR or AK and hitting all kinds of people and you are supposed to not shoot at him or her or 'they/them'* because you might hit someone else?

The other interesting part is the next weekend deputies were called to a house party that had gotten out of hand and when they drove up a guy came out of the house into the middle of some other people with a gun and shot at the deputies... guess what they did?

I don't have a problem with the slide, it is from my understanding correct. The issue is the authorities don't collect this information until after the event. If you look at the color code of the circle and the labels it really kind of makes sense..... one of the orange or yellow ones really should not be considered unless one or two of the red is already in effect.

One of my gripes about the ideology of the past owner of Front Sight is most often when there was a mass shooting in the news he would get on his stump and say it all has to do with the shooter taking antidepressants.... most of these shooters were on these... but here is the problem.... that is the same logic the anti gunners use .... all of these shooters used guns... so it is the guns that caused it.. I remember way back when attending a N.O.R.M.A.L. meeting (National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws). I know this is hard to believe but it was when I was a freshman at The Citadel. I did not smoke dope but it was something to get away from being hazed by the upperclassmen. NORMAL pointed out that back in the 30's our leaders did a study on Heroin addition and since most addicts had also smoked marijuana it was deducted that smoking reefer would cause you to get addicted to 'H'.
They also showed the movie 'Reefer Madness', which was pretty funny in a sad sort of way.

*'They/Them' We got a number of those at my 'fellowship'.

 

[DGW1949]

I ain't the evildoer's savior. To my way of thinking, anyone on a killing spree of the innocent needs to be kilt themself, and as soon as possible. That's how you stop evil....Seems that they left that part off of the chart.

DGW

 

[Jeepnik]

Whenever the government starts trying to get involved in things they don't understand I always think of this.

 

[Huskerguy72]

Interesting. I just had a person from DHS in our state at our church for a day long seminar. There is a push from DHS through FEMA to provide these seminars and get you to apply for their grants. Each state is allocated X number of dollars. In our state, the Highway Patrol handles the applications. Our church elders did not want to be entangled with the government so we opted not to apply for the grant.

The presenter was good, had some good points, lots of overall church safety stuff, not just armed intruders. The carrying of firearms is problematic for a lot of reasons. I am an RSO at our range and shoot competitively. The first battle is finding men in a small church who are competent with their firearm then building a plan of training and maintaining that forever. The are not many insurance companies that insure churches and they "generally" are risk averse to their regular members carrying. They are somewhat OK with former military or law enforcement.

We have gone over scenarios in our small church and your best defense, in my opinion, is both technology and human surveillance. Pulling a firewarm in the middle of a crowded church is something I would not be looking forward to doing. In many (hesitate to say most) instances, the shooter is attacked by others without a shot.

 

[ex13F]

For me it's American Express, I don't leave home without it.

 

[blume357]

Active shooter in a church is always what people think of with church safety.... I attended a two day sheep dog seminar a few years back and believe me there are a lot of other potential dangers more likely in a house of worship than a shooter. For years pedophiles have used 'Sunday Schools' as a hunting ground... then there are just the basic medical emergencies especially with older members.

 

[Mobuck]

"he was adamant that we did not need to carry because shooting at an active shooter would probably cause someone else to get hit....."
Don't call this 'cop bashing' BUT there is an element within the LEO profession who considers anyone not in that line of work to be totally worthless and unable to handle firearms.
Several years back I was sitting in my Cousin the corrections officer's courthouse office discussing some suspicious activity I'd noticed in a rural area when a newly minted SHP officer walked in. Cousin and I continued with the conversation and possible responses. At some point one of use broached the subject of being basically alone w/o much chance of 'back up' and new SHP officer made some comment about being 20 minutes away under most circumstances. Cousin looked at him and pointing at me said "I'd rather have him in 5 minutes than you in 20". New officer got a bit hissy about that and Cousin said " I KNOW what he can/will do in a bad spot but I don't know about YOU". At that point new officer huffed up and walked out. Obviously his attitude toward 'civilians' capabilities was questionable.

 

[protoolman]

As most of my career was rural law enforcement I always appreciated help from civilians. I checked out more than one call with a friend or aquaintances backing me up. I always unlocked the shotgun or left my backup in the glovebox when leaving a ride along in the car too.

 

[Colonialgirl]

Interesting. I just had a person from DHS in our state at our church for a day long seminar. There is a push from DHS through FEMA to provide these seminars and get you to apply for their grants. Each state is allocated X number of dollars. In our state, the Highway Patrol handles the applications. Our church elders did not want to be entangled with the government so we opted not to apply for the grant.

The presenter was good, had some good points, lots of overall church safety stuff, not just armed intruders. The carrying of firearms is problematic for a lot of reasons. I am an RSO at our range and shoot competitively. The first battle is finding men in a small church who are competent with their firearm then building a plan of training and maintaining that forever. The are not many insurance companies that insure churches and they "generally" are risk averse to their regular members carrying. They are somewhat OK with former military or law enforcement.

We have gone over scenarios in our small church and your best defense, in my opinion, is both technology and human surveillance. Pulling a firewarm in the middle of a crowded church is something I would not be looking forward to doing. In many (hesitate to say most) instances, the shooter is attacked by others without a shot.

Guess YOU MISSED what happened in that church in Texas several years ago; Shooter at the front and a couple of legally armed members toward the rear took him out with a couple of WELL AIMED shots.
I legally carry including church on Sundays and sit in the rear most bench as far from the center aisle a possible.

 

[blume357]

Actually the one I have a you tube video of ... the squirrely dude is up front and two Ushers are off to the side, he speaks to one of them and then pulls a cut down shot gun... one of these men fumbles to draw from the 6 o'clock and gets shot in the chest then the perp shoots the other guy and starts to move toward the front of the church. One guy in the very back of the church takes 'the shot' as folks are jumping up and moving.... one shot to the head from over 30 feet.

You Tube will warn you if you click on this: