And yet people still happily fork over their hard earned money to this con man and his wife.
I've listened to Joel Osteen. I believe he is Biblically ignorant and blasphemous.
Church business model?
- Thread starter NC FNS
- Start date
I've listened to Joel Osteen. I believe he is Biblically ignorant and blasphemous.
I had a cousin and her husband. They were very well off in Phoenix. Their church found out that they were pretty wealthy and flat out told my cousin and her husband, if they wanted to keep their membership in the church, they had to pay more money.
The husband was originally from New Jersey and told them what he thought of their idea. Then they went to another church.
The husband was originally from New Jersey and told them what he thought of their idea. Then they went to another church.
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
You just described the argument over reloading manuals as well. :ROFLMAO:
Unfortunately, humans are human. Very sorry for the bad experiences some of you have had. Religion has many examples of fraud, bad faith actors and unhealthy people. That said, the doubters came too late to tell me that God’s not real. I’ve seen too many lives completely changed after one encounter with his presence. When I look to Him, and not a personality or a religion, I do best.
It’s like that song, “God’s good, beer’s great and people are crazy”. Except I don’t like beer…
TomD
It’s like that song, “God’s good, beer’s great and people are crazy”. Except I don’t like beer…
TomD
I think what a lot of these new churches do, it deliberately bend their "theology" to make people feel good about themselves and ignore the true Christian doctrine. After all, if you don't have enough members, then you can't make enough money.
Or if you're not into Christianity, whatever doctrine. You know: "You're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone it, God likes you."
One of these days they'll find out the hard way.
Or if you're not into Christianity, whatever doctrine. You know: "You're good enough, you're smart enough, and doggone it, God likes you."
One of these days they'll find out the hard way.
Yaworski
Hawkeye
An acquaintance who is a Baptist minister told me that to join his church you had to pledge 10% of your income. Let's go with 200 families with $100k income (low for the area). That's $2 million a year for the church.
Shame on him. That is ridiculous.
Yaworski
Hawkeye
10% is the biblical requirement.
The Jews were required (by Law), to tithe to the Levites (Tribe of Levi).
Later on, temple priests pretty much demanded 10% from the Jewish people. This is partly the reason why Yeshua (Jesus) became so angry with the money changers inside the temple grounds.
The Pharasees were cheating and scamming people that came to the temple to worship and honor the Creator, and to offer a sacrifice (for sin)
In other words, the Levites made tithing into a business.
Now if you want to tithe that is a personal deccision. Do not let a pastor tell you you "have to tithe to be a good Christian"
Or "If you don't tithe you can't be a member of the church".
Tithing was demanded of the Jews.
I'm not Jewish.
If you decide to follow the Laws of Moses then you might as well celebrate the Jewish Shabbat on Friday evening and all day Saturday till sundown, plus celebrate and honor the High Shabbot and other traditional feast days and holy days.
The New Testament speaks very little about tithing and Yeshua (Jesus) did not mention it much at all.
The church at large has made tithing "a standard" so much so that passinig the plate is standard at virtually every western church.
Don't be guilted into tithing. It should be done freely from the heart.
Later on, temple priests pretty much demanded 10% from the Jewish people. This is partly the reason why Yeshua (Jesus) became so angry with the money changers inside the temple grounds.
The Pharasees were cheating and scamming people that came to the temple to worship and honor the Creator, and to offer a sacrifice (for sin)
In other words, the Levites made tithing into a business.
Now if you want to tithe that is a personal deccision. Do not let a pastor tell you you "have to tithe to be a good Christian"
Or "If you don't tithe you can't be a member of the church".
Tithing was demanded of the Jews.
I'm not Jewish.
If you decide to follow the Laws of Moses then you might as well celebrate the Jewish Shabbat on Friday evening and all day Saturday till sundown, plus celebrate and honor the High Shabbot and other traditional feast days and holy days.
The New Testament speaks very little about tithing and Yeshua (Jesus) did not mention it much at all.
The church at large has made tithing "a standard" so much so that passinig the plate is standard at virtually every western church.
Don't be guilted into tithing. It should be done freely from the heart.
Seventh Day Adventists
Yes they are a religious cult that follow the teachings of a female priest named Ellen G. White.
Nice pople though. Most are vegetarians and do not touch alcohol.
Thier doctrine is strange and not 100% Biblical.
They meet on Saturday as that is the original Jewish Sabbath.
The Catholic Church changed the Sabbath from Saturday to the Roman Day of the Sun, Sunday.
Early Christians originally met Friday evening till sundown Saturday.
wheelgun1958
Hunter
Katmanduey
Bearcat
Two things that cause the most problems in a family and the population is religion and politics. While no one person is perfect and with out sin neither is anyone church/denomination. I am a Bible believer but not a bible thumper. I try to follow the commandments that Christ gave us. Love God with all your heart, your mind, all your strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. Feed the hungry, treat the sick, visit the lost and lonely (prisoners). Human being are fragile and broken ; left to there own devices they are going to do what seems to be the easiest and what benefits them the most. Some ministers, priest, preachers, are devout to their calling, some are in it for their ego and some for the money, some for access to to venerable persons.
I don't have answers I do have questions. But I have faith and try to keep my eyes on my goal, love my neighbor as I love myself. God said love them he did not say you had to like them. Forgiveness is hard because every time to remember the sin to have forgive it again.
I don't have answers I do have questions. But I have faith and try to keep my eyes on my goal, love my neighbor as I love myself. God said love them he did not say you had to like them. Forgiveness is hard because every time to remember the sin to have forgive it again.
See below
Amen to that, brotherThe Jews were required (by Law), to tithe to the Levites (Tribe of Levi).
Later on, temple priests pretty much demanded 10% from the Jewish people. This is partly the reason why Yeshua (Jesus) became so angry with the money changers inside the temple grounds.
The Pharasees were cheating and scamming people that came to the temple to worship and honor the Creator, and to offer a sacrifice (for sin)
In other words, the Levites made tithing into a business.
Now if you want to tithe that is a personal deccision. Do not let a pastor tell you you "have to tithe to be a good Christian"
Or "If you don't tithe you can't be a member of the church".
Tithing was demanded of the Jews.
I'm not Jewish.
If you decide to follow the Laws of Moses then you might as well celebrate the Jewish Shabbat on Friday evening and all day Saturday till sundown, plus celebrate and honor the High Shabbot and other traditional feast days and holy days.
The New Testament speaks very little about tithing and Yeshua (Jesus) did not mention it much at all.
The church at large has made tithing "a standard" so much so that passinig the plate is standard at virtually every western church.
Don't be guilted into tithing. It should be done freely from the heart.
You don't have time for perfect Christians/ Well this will save you a lot of time. There aren't any. And if you find a perfect church, dont join it cause then it will be ruined.
Huskerguy72
Single-Sixer
So then tell me how a book can be written over 1,500 years by over 40 different authors and two primary languages but yet there is complete harmony among them. Predictions made 1,500 years ago were fulfilled many years later to the T. No inconsistency. Then further explain eye witnesses to Jesus’s life and death were willing to go to their own death without changing their mind? They had nothing to gain and their lives to lose but willingly did so because if what they were eyewitnesses to.
I find it interesting that some portray the Bible as a collection of myths and fairy tales but believe man just happened to evolve into this complex being that even modern science can’t explain.
Yaworski
Hawkeye
You can't be serious.
LOL. Anyone can force an event to match a prophesy.
Eyewitnesses going to their death? Jonestown? Branch Davidians? Children of the Moonflower? Islamic suicide bombers. Zealots are always willing to die.
OP
Ahh, good ol’ Joisey. I can hear him now, "I’m gonna find anuddah choich. You gotta probbem wit dat?"
If you want to go down the rabbit hole, compare the Jewish Tanakh with the modern western Bible.
What we call the Bible today is the corrupted edited Catholic version of the Jewish Tanakh (Old Testament)
The Jewish Torah is the first five books of Moses, what we call the Pentateuch in the Bible.
So the Tanakh includes the Torah and all the other books of what we would call the Old Testament.
The Tanakh does not incude the New Testament for obvious reasons. Jews do not consider Jesus (Yeshua) to be the Creator or the Son of the Creator.
However the Tanakh will show you how the original Jewish writings were changed to fit the pagan Roman belief systems that were prevalent in those times.
The pagan Roman "Madonna with child" became "Mother Mary with Jesus".
The pagan Romans were deeply into mother worship.
What we call the Bible today is the corrupted edited Catholic version of the Jewish Tanakh (Old Testament)
The Jewish Torah is the first five books of Moses, what we call the Pentateuch in the Bible.
So the Tanakh includes the Torah and all the other books of what we would call the Old Testament.
The Tanakh does not incude the New Testament for obvious reasons. Jews do not consider Jesus (Yeshua) to be the Creator or the Son of the Creator.
However the Tanakh will show you how the original Jewish writings were changed to fit the pagan Roman belief systems that were prevalent in those times.
The pagan Roman "Madonna with child" became "Mother Mary with Jesus".
The pagan Romans were deeply into mother worship.
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All the groups you mentioned thought they had the truth. The early Church martyrs died because they knew the Resurrection was the truth as many of them witnessed the risen Christ. People dent die torturous deaths for what they know is a lie.
[H1]"I know the resurrection is a fact, and Watergate proved it to me. How? Because 12 men testified they had seen Jesus raised from the dead, then they proclaimed that truth for 40 years, never once denying it. Every one was beaten, tortured, stoned and put in prison. They would not have endured that if it weren't true. Watergate embroiled 12 of the most powerful men in the world-and they couldn't keep a lie for three weeks. You're telling me 12 apostles could keep a lie for 40 years? Absolutely impossible."
[/H1]
― Charles Colson
The re establishment i of Israel is with out equal in the history of the world that a nation can be disbursed throughout the world and then the people come back 1900 years later same culture language and religion.
Yaworski
Hawkeye
Did they? Or did they just think that they did? Other than the scribblings of zealots, are there any records? The Romans were diligent record keepers.
The "gospels" weren't written by the claimed authors so their veracity is in doubt. Paul never met Christ, he just had a bad nights sleep and went insane.
If I accept your special books then I must also accept the book of Mormon and the Koran, The Koran has to be more special because it is believed by more people than any other special book.
There is a difference. There has been ZERO archeological evidence that the Book of Mormon or the Islamic Quran are true.
However irrefutable archeological evidence for the Bible increases every day.
However irrefutable archeological evidence for the Bible increases every day.
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Yaworski
Hawkeye
Lol.
This is an interesting topic, and one I often ponder as I travel this life. I have experienced Jesus/Yeshua and how he changed my life 50 years ago, and everyday since. I am thankful for His Fellowship, the Fellowship of My Father, and the Guidance of His Spirit. Regarding this topic, I too have experienced the frustration and hurt of hypocrisy, and the confusion and frustration of religious Bible Sophistry. I completely understand and wish it weren't so, but it is. I can only know this; My Father, Jesus/Yeshua, and the Holy Spirit are very patient, long suffering. He is giving everyone who needs to repent the opportunity to do so, as He wants all to come to repentance and be saved. I also know that the believers are called to exercise the Patience of the Saints, and Trust and Believe that these confusing frustrations, and blatant hypocrisy will, in our Father's just timing, be Judged justly. The wheat and the tares grow together, as do the sheep and the goats. When Father's time is right, the wheat and tares will be separated, the sheep and goats will be set apart from each other. There will be many who don't repent, but will claim and justify that they did great works in the Name of the Lord. He will tell them to depart, that He doesn't know who they are. Until That Day, I will Trust My Father, Hope many will Repent, and be Patient.
NDE's are also fascinating to watch
Especially when the person that dies is agnostic or an atheist.
When they are revived later in the hospital they are no longer agnostic/ athiest. They return completely changed, and no longer fear death .
Especially when the person that dies is agnostic or an atheist.
When they are revived later in the hospital they are no longer agnostic/ athiest. They return completely changed, and no longer fear death .
When I gave my life to the Messiah 30 years ago I sold my house and property, bought a motor home, and have been traveling around the past 31 years helping people in their daily lives by fixing whatever I can. I also will give people rides when I'm in their area.
I have not charged anyone during this time, but take what is given me and move on to the next people in need.
I have done so in five states so far, and have gone down into Mexico twice to physically help build church buildings with no pay other than room and board.
I am currently donating my time and labor at a small church building south of Yellville Arkansas helping fix it up. I will be finished here by tomorrow and will move on to helping the next people fixing their homes, cutting fire wood, etc...
I came up to Arkansas three months ago for what was planned to be a two week excursion helping build a small out building. I have been bouncing back and forth between Arkansas and Missouri for three months now helping fix people homes up.
Lord I miss Tejas! But through my travels I am being filled with joy that no man can take away!
Ditto on the song about signs. Hallelu-Yah, Awmain!
If you are not serious do not ask the Messiah "What must I do to be perfect?" Because as far as I know He only has one answer to that question. "GO SELL ALL THAT YOU HAVE, GIVE TO THE POOR, AND COME FOLLOW AFTER ME." My answer back was - Just as I am I'll follow. No turning back, I'll follow.
I still am not perfect and because of such I have been called every dirty name in the book, yet many good ones as well. But the one I charis the most was when I stopped one hot Texas day and changed a flat tire on a young lady's car who was stranded on the side of the road. Then the next Sunday I just so happened to stop in at the church she was going to. The preacher's sermon was about Angels, and during the sermon the young lady raised her hand. The preacher stopped and asked what she had to say, and as she stood up she said "Speaking of Angels (turning pointing her finger at me) there's one right there." Everybody there turn around and as they turned their heads back forward they had a look of "yeh right" on their faces. She frantically was looking around trying to think of what to say and then looked toward me as if I would somehow say or do something to convince the people that I was indeed an Angel. I but only smiled at her and she regain the smile she had and sat quietly throughout the rest of the sermon. Go figure, as I think she actually believed that I was one. Any way to her I was God sent and that was enough for her.
By the way in case anyone is wondering what this minister drives, I have had three 20' motorhomes. The first was a 1970 Dodge cab over. The second a 1972 Dodge Avion cab over, and currently I moved up to a newer 1977 Dodge motorhome (none of which had a working AC).
I have not charged anyone during this time, but take what is given me and move on to the next people in need.
I have done so in five states so far, and have gone down into Mexico twice to physically help build church buildings with no pay other than room and board.
I am currently donating my time and labor at a small church building south of Yellville Arkansas helping fix it up. I will be finished here by tomorrow and will move on to helping the next people fixing their homes, cutting fire wood, etc...
I came up to Arkansas three months ago for what was planned to be a two week excursion helping build a small out building. I have been bouncing back and forth between Arkansas and Missouri for three months now helping fix people homes up.
Lord I miss Tejas! But through my travels I am being filled with joy that no man can take away!
Ditto on the song about signs. Hallelu-Yah, Awmain!
If you are not serious do not ask the Messiah "What must I do to be perfect?" Because as far as I know He only has one answer to that question. "GO SELL ALL THAT YOU HAVE, GIVE TO THE POOR, AND COME FOLLOW AFTER ME." My answer back was - Just as I am I'll follow. No turning back, I'll follow.
I still am not perfect and because of such I have been called every dirty name in the book, yet many good ones as well. But the one I charis the most was when I stopped one hot Texas day and changed a flat tire on a young lady's car who was stranded on the side of the road. Then the next Sunday I just so happened to stop in at the church she was going to. The preacher's sermon was about Angels, and during the sermon the young lady raised her hand. The preacher stopped and asked what she had to say, and as she stood up she said "Speaking of Angels (turning pointing her finger at me) there's one right there." Everybody there turn around and as they turned their heads back forward they had a look of "yeh right" on their faces. She frantically was looking around trying to think of what to say and then looked toward me as if I would somehow say or do something to convince the people that I was indeed an Angel. I but only smiled at her and she regain the smile she had and sat quietly throughout the rest of the sermon. Go figure, as I think she actually believed that I was one. Any way to her I was God sent and that was enough for her.
By the way in case anyone is wondering what this minister drives, I have had three 20' motorhomes. The first was a 1970 Dodge cab over. The second a 1972 Dodge Avion cab over, and currently I moved up to a newer 1977 Dodge motorhome (none of which had a working AC).
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You are blessed. Continue your travels young man and thank you for your testimony. What you are doing most of us could not commit to
Young man? I'm 62 now and scrinking.You are blessed. Continue your travels young man and thank you for your testimony. What you are doing most of us could not commit to
If every body committed to the life I live there would be no one needing my help and I would be out of a ministry. Some of us are the hands, some the feet, etc... It takes all members of a body to function. We all have different purposes. And with the Messiah as the head we are guided in harmony toward the goal.
YHWH speed to you my brother in Messiah.
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
Should and must have different definitions and the words are transliterated from other languages anyway. I was raised Baptist (but Southern Baptist is not the same as other "flavors") and for sure it is not a requirement of any kind to donate a certain amount in New Testament models ... at least not that I have ever heard.
Funny someone mentions one true Christian church (my wife and her family are Catholic) but uses the term cult for Saturday services. It's funny since as many or more Catholics attend Saturday Mass than Sunday down here. My wife's family has always gone to Mass on Saturday evening.
Funny someone mentions one true Christian church (my wife and her family are Catholic) but uses the term cult for Saturday services. It's funny since as many or more Catholics attend Saturday Mass than Sunday down here. My wife's family has always gone to Mass on Saturday evening.
Unfortunately really good ministers are placed on a pedestal and obtain god like status. The larger the flock, the bigger the paycheck. Occasionally a church hires a "minister" who is unworthy and bends the scriptures to agree with their whims and prejudices, I call them charlatans and money banks. The results is the church looses focus and splits or devours itself internally.
