Church Security
- Thread starter MaxMan
- Start date
So everyone isn't John Wick. Does that mean they shouldn't have the right to defend themselves and their families?
I highly doubt any of us could hit center mass twice and put one in the head of a target that is both moving and shooting at you.
I know for certain I will likely get two rounds on target (my statistical average) out of eight while lying on my belly shooting at a moving target less than ten feet away while said target is shooting back.
Again, life ain't a John Wick flick.
I highly doubt any of us could hit center mass twice and put one in the head of a target that is both moving and shooting at you.
I know for certain I will likely get two rounds on target (my statistical average) out of eight while lying on my belly shooting at a moving target less than ten feet away while said target is shooting back.
Again, life ain't a John Wick flick.
DGW1949
Hawkeye
That's an interesting statistic, but myself, I'd be very interested in breaking it down even further from there....meaning that out that 15%, how many can recite one or more past instances wherein they had already demonstrated a willingness to act?.....Whatever the percentage to that question is, those are the one's I'd pick from. I say that because way back in the dark ages when I was a Deputy Sheriff, one of our investigators turned in his badge and quit. The reason he gave was that he had recently pulled his gun and pointed it at a suspect for the first time, and doing so had made him physically sick. In short, he didn't think that he could ever shoot someone no matter the reason....And BTW, he was not only a long-time cop, he was one of the best shots on our pistol team.
Serious stuff that's being discussed here. Absent the want to, skill alone won't matter.
DGW
If you don't know if you can, because if you haven't, count yourself lucky.
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xTopGun
Buckeye
and, of your 15% come these - - - I never ever want to face that choice again; but, I have an extremely strong propensity towards living, so there's that . . . . .
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DGW1949
Hawkeye
What you wrote seems to imply that it's the uninitiated whom are "lucky" and that the experienced are not. Common sense dictates that that will not always be the case...but I guess that you are free to believe what you want, so it follows that you would also be free to pick out who you want to defend those you care about.
DGW
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No matter how many times you have, the concern rises back in your mind as you prepare/begin to attempt it again. Yet without the will to succeed you won't succeed. JMHO YMMV. Military training used to be a double tap one to center of mass and the second during the ensuring pause or reaction, to the head. It was practiced numerously. Just saying, not saying.
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I just reread what I wrote. I corrected it. I really had typing on phones. But to be clear, the "lucky" are those who haven't had to find out.
Amen to that, I will readily say that I can talk a good game but if the time comes to prove it I have no clue as to whether I will do as I say. I only pray on Sundays as well as other days that time never comes.
You said your Dad was privy to who was armed. How did he know? Did everyone that was armed have to check in with him? Hence, unless that was the way things happened then concealed is concealed..
stonebuster
Blackhawk
- Joined
- Mar 29, 2017
- Messages
- 647
I was reading and waiting to see if anyone would mention people monitoring video cameras. Too many times we've seen the perp walking into a school or church openly carrying a weapon. The best time to stop the threat is before it starts. I think all schools should have someone watching video of the school grounds anytime school is open. Same goes for when people congregate in a church. This should be in addition to other security, not instead of it.
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
Yes, sort of. They checked in, just not with him, with all. Not weird, actually normal. Concealed has nothing to do with secret. It just means hidden from view.
Maybe I am fooling myself, but despite never having to aim my concealed handgun at another human being I do not think that I would hesitate to pull the trigger if I needed to. I sure hope that this would be the case, but I will not know until and if that situation ever arises. Mindset seems to be key in this matter. During my military service I had a very few occasions in Vietnam to fire my weapon in the direction of the enemy. I never saw any specific individuals that I was shooting at, nor do I have any clue as to whether or not my shots hit their intended target. But at least I know that when rounds were coming toward me I had the ability to shoot back rather than freezing.
A fried of my wife has a son, whom I know fairly well, who is an LEO in a small, quiet suburb of a city. Until just a few years ago this suburban police department had never had a single incident of an officer shooting, let alone killing a perp. But a few years ago this young man was on duty alone when he stopped a car that turned out to be a thug fleeing the police from the nearby city. The thug fired at him, he returned fire and killed the thug. He later told me that he had often wondered if he could actually do this if it ever came up. And he also told me that he never lost a night of sleep over what he had done.
A fried of my wife has a son, whom I know fairly well, who is an LEO in a small, quiet suburb of a city. Until just a few years ago this suburban police department had never had a single incident of an officer shooting, let alone killing a perp. But a few years ago this young man was on duty alone when he stopped a car that turned out to be a thug fleeing the police from the nearby city. The thug fired at him, he returned fire and killed the thug. He later told me that he had often wondered if he could actually do this if it ever came up. And he also told me that he never lost a night of sleep over what he had done.
DGW1949
Hawkeye
Do you not think it better that a man pray for the strength (and the will) to do the right thing if/when the time comes instead of asking God to exempt him from the fight all together?....If you don't want to fight evil, why did you ask to be put into the position of needing to do so?....Makes no sense to me.
DGW
DGW1949
Hawkeye
No, you didn't correct it, you eliminated much of it....kinda renders my response moot...but that's OK, I modified it to fit what remained of your original post...
Feel free to carry on, I'm done with it.
DGW
My point is it's better to never have to find out if you can take a life. And you are lucky if you don't have to find out.
Some on here appear to be anti-others knowing who is armed (or is it THEY are armed in church. As one of the people on the informal safety team, I would love to know who else is carrying and for them to know I am carrying, so that we all know who the good guys and gals are with guns and who the dirtbag(s) are. If only to lower the risk of friendly fire --- see a gun and shoot the person who is holding it.
Some of this goes to there are things that I do not know about you, and that you may not know about me and my fear is it might not go well for either of us in a fire fight!
Some of this goes to there are things that I do not know about you, and that you may not know about me and my fear is it might not go well for either of us in a fire fight!
I think you read me wrong... I pray that I will never have to ever use my gun on another person. But I also pray that if I do the Lord will help me to aim true.
One of my little bragging rights is a number of years here on this forum, probably two decades ago, in discussing concealed carry one of the members stated that if you are going to carry then you not only need to be trained but keep that training up.... I've started getting lax on this I have to admit, but over the last number of years I've taken and the key part is paid for something like 250 hours of formal firearms training.....
It's Sunday morning 10:00 and I'm headed to 'work'.
That's a layer I mentioned as layers of security. Some layers are seen by the people, some not. It does have a cost and should be as important as armed people about the place. Along with that is communications. It doesn't save anyone if the video/cameras just show
's stuff after the event. Someone needs to be watching the cameras, communicating and getting others to act to stop the threat.
A common problem is during such event is the people who will react all want to run to where the problem is. That leaves everywhere else unprotected. Training needs to instill to people assigned to an area/station stay in place unless or until told to help somewhere else. Untrained cops do the same thing and that allows crooks to get away or harm others where no cops are present that should be present.
Guess I'm in the camp of folks that run toward gunfire. You can usually find enough folks that will hold their position or even retreat from gunfire. But those that actually go towards gun fire are much rarer. JMHO YMMV.
Took me a long time to get the idea of running toward the threat but the reality is in an active shooter situation if you can not be absolutely positive you can get away then that is your best chance of survival.
Run, hide, finally fight if your goal is survival. Now when the goal is the survival of others, have them run, have them hide, all while you fight to defend them from harm. It's a totally different concept than personal survival, who would you lay your life down to do your best to enhance their survival? Serve and Protect. It's a hard concept to grasp. JMHO YMMV.
Serve and Protect. It's a hard concept to grasp. JMHO YMMV.
My Sunday morning job is probably the hardest work I've ever done... pretty much just sitting in the foyer waiting for a bad thing to happen and hoping it doesn't .... talk about boring... I've worked for myself for 43 years and can not stand waiting line and doing nothing.... So while I'm at my church doing nothing I look for things to do like open the door for late comers and sweeping the floor of debris... I do my best to stay away from my phone though because I am supposed to be watching out.
If you get Ed Monk's book First 30 Seconds you will discover that following the current official belief of "Run, Hide and finally fight" is a good way to get yourself and others killed. He mostly goes after the school doctrine of locking the children in the room and waiting for the police to arrive and save you, looks good on paper totally a blood bath in real life.
If you get Ed Monk's book First 30 Seconds you will discover that following the current official belief of "Run, Hide and finally fight" is a good way to get yourself and others killed. He mostly goes after the school doctrine of locking the children in the room and waiting for the police to arrive and save you, looks good on paper totally a blood bath in real life.
Doing dignitary protection is what I was trained in. Church security shares some of the same basic ideas. A spot of the same ideas in my opinion is your duty to protect. That means watching, nothing else. No assisting seniors in/out of vehicles or church. Not watching/listening to the sermon. No picking up stuff others drop. No sweeping floors are examples. That goes against the way we were taught, helping others. I get that. But, if your engaged helping out someone, your not watching for threats to protect others. I agree it is boring.
Absolutely! At least you are putting yourself in a position to possibly stop the threat. That and your chances are better than getting shot in the back. Again ..read The First 30 Seconds.
I teach Active Shooter twice a month. Run-Hide-Fight makes total sense in the environment I teach it. Makes total sense litigation wise as well to big companies. My students are not armed or trained or for the most part have the mindset or even the ability to "run towards" the threat. In the past 5 years since I have been instructing this course at this particular campus there has been two (02) active shooter incidents and several aggressive intruder incidents (no weapons taken off the intruder). Only one (01) had the potential for serious harm. In that incident cruisers responded in time, the subject had removed a rifle from the trunk and was walking towards the entrance of building that was previously threatened verbally in person and by phone. Security hit the "Active Shooter" alert and the building executed as taught, without incident. The other incident the subject was able to breach security. The subject was terminated earlier, made threats on social media towards another who was in the building and was making his way towards that person. When security was advised the alert was sounded and the building thankfully executed as taught....if the subject was rushed, there most likely would have been a shooting. When apprehended (by LE) subject had a loaded handgun, was intoxicated and still motivated to kill the person threatened. LE had time to post and secure all three egress points the building was trained to evacuate out of. LE has a blueprint of both buildings on the campus, the egress points, and when a new Officer is brought on they schedule a internal/external tour of the campus.
This is a no weapons campus. Running towards an Active Shooter will be nothing but a blood bath with yourself and others killed.
EP is typically "boring".....and being "bored" can wear you out. SRS (Static Robot Syndrome) is what a instructor called it. Ever get back home or to the hotel room and you are sore from being on alert/over stimulated for hours....sucked. Bourbon take me away....
A couple buddies of mine did Air Marshall gigs.....about drove them crazy.
Does airdropped Jim Beam count as bourbon in the civilian world?I teach Active Shooter twice a month. Run-Hide-Fight makes total sense in the environment I teach it. Makes total sense litigation wise as well to big companies.
EP is typically "boring".....and being "bored" can wear you out. SRS (Static Robot Syndrome) is what a instructor called it. Ever get back home or to the hotel room and you are sore from being on alert/over stimulated for hours....sucked. Bourbon take me away....
I'm going to have to defer to XUSNORDIE for the simple reason he obviously has actual experience in this. I have to admit I'm not comfortable being my churches security but the issue is no one else is stepping up. Ideally we would hire off duty police officers to stand guard but it aint' happening ...
I keep mentioning Ed Monk's book but I guess another way to look at it is he has only taken events that prove his point. I agree that most people should run away or hide... but then in most active shooter cases like the ones XUSNORDIE described it is just some idiot that really does not have a plan or clue, drunk and pissed off at one person is not the same as hyped and loaded with 300+ rounds of ammo with the one goal of killing as many people as they can before some one with a gun and trained to use it shows up.
I've thought too much about these things and if I was one of those 'with a plan' the first thing I would do is recon the place and then on 'D-Day' take out the security first.... I've always thought that with any campus security you would need at the very least two armed people and the first rule is they are never in the same place a the same time.
I keep mentioning Ed Monk's book but I guess another way to look at it is he has only taken events that prove his point. I agree that most people should run away or hide... but then in most active shooter cases like the ones XUSNORDIE described it is just some idiot that really does not have a plan or clue, drunk and pissed off at one person is not the same as hyped and loaded with 300+ rounds of ammo with the one goal of killing as many people as they can before some one with a gun and trained to use it shows up.
I've thought too much about these things and if I was one of those 'with a plan' the first thing I would do is recon the place and then on 'D-Day' take out the security first.... I've always thought that with any campus security you would need at the very least two armed people and the first rule is they are never in the same place a the same time.
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Roger That
Bearcat
I hope we are at the point where churches wake up and do the right thing by protecting the flock.
