Guess I'm not the only Cafeteria Catholic out there?
Church Security
- Thread starter MaxMan
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I would not describe myself that way.Guess I'm not the only Cafeteria Catholic out there?
Defending yourself and your family doesn’t violate church doctrine.
https://catholicgentleman.com/2014/01/the-catholic-guide-to-self-defense/
I’m not even Catholic I’m a Mandalorian.
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GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
I have not read the posts. Dad was a deacon and was privy to who was armed at each service. He was one that carried but very very rarely. Guess I am getting back the S&W M&P 40C I helped him get.
This is the way.
I recall something about turning the other cheek? But I guess that depends on what religion? Since I'm a mere earthling, perhaps I haven't yet progressed to be Mando? Perhaps my generation is more closely assimilated to Klingons?
Yet my limited military experience still has me questioning why the five highest ranking officers are part of the sacrificial expeditionary force sent to probe into the unknown?
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Turning the other cheek has to do with responding to petty insults or offenses with dignity. It doesn’t apply to life threatening violence.
Some choose to be pacifists (sheep) some choose to be warriors (sheep dog)
Both paths are righteous both are biblical.
Some choose to be pacifists (sheep) some choose to be warriors (sheep dog)
Both paths are righteous both are biblical.
Warriors are Wolves, Sheepdogs merely protect a flock, sheep are usually found in flocks. successful Shepherds direct flocks into areas that wolves seldom venture while sheepdogs only provide a moment of calm to the flock. Still the sheep get sheared every year. While the Old and weak are given to the Wolves or butcher to protect the integrity of the flock. None of these facts do I find in the teachings of God's Son? Could you expound????
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In my simple analogy wolves are evil.
If you aren’t evil you are either a protector or in need of protection. That is where the analogy stops.
I’m not a preacher or a priest. You should read the bible and pray for guidance. Read the words, listen to what they say, not what others tell you they say.
For example “Though shalt not kill”. The word actually translates to murder. The same word appears in other places and is correctly translated. There is a time to die and a time to kill. David killed Goliath. Big difference between kill and murder.
We are in a war against evil. Many will have you believe it is only a spiritual war, If you look at the verse, the verses rarely specify spiritual. The physical fight is easy to see, it is important for the warriors to realize it is also spiritual.
The disciples were not weak men, they were strong men.
Christ told them if you don’t have a sword sell your cloak and buy one.
Peter cut the ear off the soldier defending Christ. Christ rebuked him, not for having the sword, but for using it at the wrong time.
If you aren’t evil you are either a protector or in need of protection. That is where the analogy stops.
I’m not a preacher or a priest. You should read the bible and pray for guidance. Read the words, listen to what they say, not what others tell you they say.
For example “Though shalt not kill”. The word actually translates to murder. The same word appears in other places and is correctly translated. There is a time to die and a time to kill. David killed Goliath. Big difference between kill and murder.
We are in a war against evil. Many will have you believe it is only a spiritual war, If you look at the verse, the verses rarely specify spiritual. The physical fight is easy to see, it is important for the warriors to realize it is also spiritual.
The disciples were not weak men, they were strong men.
Christ told them if you don’t have a sword sell your cloak and buy one.
Peter cut the ear off the soldier defending Christ. Christ rebuked him, not for having the sword, but for using it at the wrong time.
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One of the very interesting facts that is pretty much never covered in the news is one of the victims of the Charleston Church shooting had a permit to carry but felt one should not carry in a 'house of the Lord.' I heard that he had left his pistol in his car from the then chief of police of Charleston and got this confirmed by Ed Monk the author of "First 30 Seconds'. Putting aside Sunday services where I cruise the building and pretty much sit near the entrance, when ever I attend a meeting during the week I always sit facing the entrance to that room.
I watched a number of church security folks on YouTube and this past weekend 022726 & 022826) attended a church security training event, all of those folks will tell you that your security starts in the parking lot and outside the doors of the church. The trainer this past weekend said, "if they make it to the sanctuary, it's too late!" His thought was that we need to welcome and check out folks as they 1) walk in from the parking lot (not real doable at my church or 2) as they enter the lobby/church. All the folks I have heard speak on security say, when a new person walks in the church size them up. Ask question like "How did you hear about the church?" "Are you from here?" then follow up with questions based on their answers. One, former cop, even says work in a question about weapons if you think they may be carrying any kind of weapon and go from there. He said that normally if they are sketchy, they will pause, maybe stammer, and say NO as they put their hand on the weapon.
The guy this past weekend also said that as security we need to be in a state of mind that is situationally aware, if you are familiar with the color codes for Situational Awareness, it would be high yellow, bordering on the edge of orange.
The guy this past weekend also said that as security we need to be in a state of mind that is situationally aware, if you are familiar with the color codes for Situational Awareness, it would be high yellow, bordering on the edge of orange.
We live stream for the first Sunday of the month service I put in the description that we will be doing communion this Sunday and if the watcher would like they can get whatever they have in the house to use as bread and juice.
What? Did those that were armed check in with him. It is called 'concealed carry' for a reason.
My thoughts, using the idea that security at any event will/should be done in layers. Some involved if not most at a church should not be listening to or paying any attention to the service. All attention should be done for security before patrons arrive and till after they leave. Some security personal will be seen and interact with those coming and going. Many should not be seen or known to others as security. Having armed people attending the service seated about is only 1 layer of protection.
Two points. Peter's comments fall in line with how I have handled home security for decades. "Keep them outside". Advice from an old homicide cop.
And that falls right in line with layered security. We've had that since the beginning with "observers" outside. They have been armed, but until recently only with handguns. Some now decide to have long guns available.
Here's an interesting observation. A couple of the outside guys don't attend services. But family members do. In one case, he attends worship on Saturday while his wife's Sabbath is Sunday.
And that falls right in line with layered security. We've had that since the beginning with "observers" outside. They have been armed, but until recently only with handguns. Some now decide to have long guns available.
Here's an interesting observation. A couple of the outside guys don't attend services. But family members do. In one case, he attends worship on Saturday while his wife's Sabbath is Sunday.
Huskerguy72
Single-Sixer
I don't know what our numbers for people carrying would be but not likely 50%. In that case of having 50% I am not sure more is better. I have come to the conclusion that churches should have one main entrance, no matter how busy, trained people to NOT greet but to just watch and know what to look for (along with cameras and someone monitoring them), one main entrance into the sanctuary with monitors and monitoring people there as well. I have become convinced that the right person armed with the right firearm and with the right training could be affective but the reality is those people are few and far between. I put zero stock in some people carrying and especially the number of women who do now. My wife has her permit but she and I both agree that in that situation, we both want her to worry about her. A firearm could come in handy if she was cornered or under a pew but hopefully the treat has ended by then.
xTopGun
Buckeye
I prefer to avoid any target rich environment, be it a church, stadium, theater, etc. whatever the criminal's intent.... 
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
I don't understand your question. Concealed and secret are not the same. And one deacon knowing which other is armed seems like a good idea to me.
Concealed carry is only concealed until your printed. To someone experienced, there is almost nowhere that you can conceal a firearm with any success. Only those bathing in the Bravado Pool even consider that they are successfully concealing a firearm from a trained professional. The naive might be a different situation? But beware of the curiosity of children, and they have no filters when it comes to their curiosity. JMHO YMMV.
The.Tumbleweed
Blackhawk
Wolves are wolves, and sheep are sheep. Animals are neither good, nor evil, but like us, they have a social structure, are emotional creatures, with attachments, and loyalties.
Evil is a concept, conceived by men, to understand the negative side of nature, in regards to societal norms. Not all societies have the same accepted societal practices, and norms. That said, religious zealots tend to be very emotional, and create chaos, at times. Anarchists and religious zealots have similar behaviors when they feel they need to do something dramatic to express a point.
Man is the only creature, in all or Earth's history, that has the ability to bring about our own extinction.
The.Tumbleweed
Blackhawk
Uh huh.
Many years ago, a single dad, with two kids, I walked into the police station with 5 pistols on my person, past the front desk, past the break room, and straight to the captain's office, all without being challenged once. I had been harassed, frequently by them, for years, as a dirty, lowlife, scum of the earth hippy biker/veteran.
I presented the weapons to the captain, explained that I was unchallenged at every point, and informed him a person was planning to assault station soon.... it happened the next day, AND he was caught at the front desk, and arrested.
Yes, you can carry concealed, without being detected, even if you are a thin, shaggy guy in an old field jacket.
They couldn't acknowledge my effort publicly, but I never got harassed by them ever again.
I guess some things are just the way they are.
I rarely miss a Sunday but have not attended a service in years.... Peter above is right about the Parking Lot... the problem with all this is having the people you need.... how many of you guys members want to spend their Sunday 'service' time out in the parking lot?
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
Someone every week at many churches.
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It’s an analogy, not a dissertation about the morality of wolves and sheep. Sheesh.
pie
Bearcat
This is how we did it during the covid lock down.
The idea is to rotate those who work all areas of the safety team. So, this Sunday you work the parking lot, next week you work the lobby, the next week you are sitting in church with limited duty, then you get a week off.
At the workshop I went to the guy said two to three people was the minimum for security. At my church we could do it with that. Before service all three work the lobby, then two go the sanctuary and on stays in the lobby. At the point service starts you lock the doors, which controls entry. One of the lobby guys jobs is letting late comers in and vetting them if "visitors".
I recently had the pastor of the church my wife and I joined before her passing. He wanted my thoughts concerning forming a "security committee". I taught, for 23 years, NC Concealed Carry Handgun Safety. I told him in my opinion if they had a formal group first they would have to have to prove that the members were proficient with their handgun in the 90% range and be able to engage a target with reliability at the maximum distance of the diagonal of the church sanctuary.. They had to also establish a requalification program and require regular practice on a monthly basis. I pointed out just because a person owns a handgun, doesn't magically make them proficient. I pointed out that I myself fire at least 100 handgun rounds per month with a goal of 90% proficiency on an 8X10 typing paper target. Then there is a matter having a liability policy that insures the church against law suit for accidental injury in the event the committee has to act. Each member of the committee would also have to carry a personal liability policy. I also provided information to monthly combat shooting events that would provide opportunity for practice. I haven't heard anymore concerning "Organized Security".
That'll narrow the field down pretty good Sam Summery , I know some will take issue here, but I taught a class two years ago and in that class I pointed out that just about all Americans are totally ignorant of proper gun safety and handling and that also includes most gun owners.... Y'all know it ain't as easy as it seems and what folks see on TV and in the Movies does not help.
contender
Ruger Guru
Sam is right,, and Blume makes a good point.
In USPSA,, I often use a statistic that is a pretty good way to define handgun efficiency. In USPSA,, there is a LEO category.
About 15% of LEO's are "gun people," and the other 85% just carry, own or just qualify as required to keep their job.
In general,, it can apply pretty well to ALL gun owners.
I want that 15% as my friends & associates.
In USPSA,, I often use a statistic that is a pretty good way to define handgun efficiency. In USPSA,, there is a LEO category.
About 15% of LEO's are "gun people," and the other 85% just carry, own or just qualify as required to keep their job.
In general,, it can apply pretty well to ALL gun owners.
I want that 15% as my friends & associates.
