They Are ALL Stoppers

[Busterswoodshop]

They are all stoppers if you hit them in the right place.
When they are running at you or moving , that right place might not be so easy to hit.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

Federal Punch 22 Magnum is not to be trifled with. It will stop many creatures, two and four legged.
I have a very early Charter Arms Pathfinder in 22 Mag with a 4-inch barrel.

The punch is my favorite, both in magnums and my LRs. I use Hornady Critical Defense in my .380s

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

Just curious, how many humans have been "stopped" by the 22 mag Punch so far?

And before anyone accuses me of not liking the .22 mag, remember I carry this every day.

Well, then you know it's a stopper.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

One of the factors often overlooked when discussing terminal effectiveness is low powered (and often round nose profile) bullets tend to 'skitter off course' when striking bone.
Yes, a head shot seems to be a good option BUT is far less effective if the bullet fails to penetrate the skull.

That's why I mentioned different types of ammo. An example is the Federal Punch which- despite what was posted above- is a flathead. There are a whole bunch of types of loads than can be used for defense small caliber in rifles, shotguns, and handguns. For stopping, its more about the ammo, not the size.

 

[Armybrat]

Those Missouri lead miner ruffians knew better than to mess with my Grandma and her little Sharps .30 rimfire 4-banger….

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

2 things you didn’t mention.

Rimfires are much more susceptible to misfires than center fire.

Stopping a threat immediately is better than stopping one slowly.

While I hear that about rimfire misfires, it hasn't been in my experience- and I use more rimfires than anything else. Then again, I don't buy crap ammo. Many companies that have good ammo reputations have them built on center fire or their weapons, but make truly low quality rimfires. Both Winchester and Remington are examples.

Once again, it's about placement. Given the targets I mentioned above it's a stop then and there.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

Here's a scenario for those who think the 'little guns' (22.r & 25 ACP) are 'good enough': Victim is sitting in his vehicle, attacker reaches through passenger window and fires as victim has both arms raised (range approx 3'). First bullet penetrated victim's right bicep, struck forehead above left eye, slid between skin and skull approx 1.5" before exiting leaving a 1" tear in skin. Bullet then penetrated left bicep but stopped under the skin on back of left upper arm. Second shot fired at an upward frontal angle as victim turns head toward attacker struck 1/2 inch below hairline on center of forehead, traveled between skin and skull approx 2" exiting through scalp and finally lodging in vehicle headliner. Victim did not lose consciousness but apparently attacker assumed the shots were fatal and left scene ending attack. Both FMJ bullets were recovered plus one empty 25 ACP case.
Would this have stopped an attacker? Maybe or maybe only provoked him more.

Like I said, it's more about the ammo. In the case of the .25 there is no way to make it effective, unlike a .22. It's just a bad round. You didn't mention what type of .22 round was used.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

why limit yourself?
use the 12ga and be sure.
unless owners arent man enough or afraid of recoil. lol.
people that use small cal and ga are like people who walk out on thin ice waiting to hear it crack before stopping and saying thats as far as i go, ignoring all the warnings from people before them saying...stay off the ice.
just stay on land and be sure.

Great, because I love wall / window/ furniture repairs in my house.

 

[Paul B]

The late great Elmer Keith once said, "If a man is shot with a .25ACP, he will be in need of immediate surgery." Naturally something bigger is better.

The stop I prefer is when accosted by some bad guy, the mere sight of my handgun is enough to make him back down. I have only had one occasion to have this happen and the bad guy was so filled with rage he almost got a personal invitation to meet God in person. A serious case of mistaken identity. He thought I was an ex-mayor of Tucson that he had some kind of beef with. A few years later that ex-mayor passed away and there was a big front page spread in the paper and the picture of the mayor looked like they used a picture of me. We could have been identical twins. That's the closest I've ever come to actually have to shoot someone. I hope it's also the last time.
Paul B.

 

[el caminero]

Use Enough Gun; that includes knowing the animals you may encounter in a given locale. I bet roark never took a 22 hornet or even a 270 where he knew a buff would be

 

[XUSNORDIE]

Wonder if anyone discussed 9mm vs 45Auto before? I bet not......maybe it will start a rant.....

 

[el caminero]

Here’s one option along those lines….
http://heritagemfg.com/revolvers/he...gh-rider-22-lr-22-wmr-black-standard-cocobolo

Chase down the one with nine rounds, especially in magnum, andthey have birdshead or plowhandle grips andb1-1/2" to16" barrels

 

[Jeepnik]

Well, then you know it's a stopper.

No, it's a last ditch handgun. After that it's knives or skin.

 

[Johnnu2]

I don't do "self defense", but if I did, it would be a PUMP SHOTGUN (cut down for my Bermuda shorts and knee-high white socks).
J.

 

[Joey]

I don't do "self defense", but if I did, it would be a PUMP SHOTGUN (cut down for my Bermuda shorts and knee-high white socks).
J.

Must be kin to John Candy!!! Oh wait, you didn't say anything about Hawaiian shirts!!

 

[peachhead]

While I hear that about rimfire misfires, it hasn't been in my experience- and I use more rimfires than anything else. Then again, I don't buy crap ammo. Many companies that have good ammo reputations have them built on center fire or their weapons, but make truly low quality rimfires. Both Winchester and Remington are examples.

Once again, it's about placement. Given the targets I mentioned above it's a stop then and there.

I agree with you to a certain point. Some rimfire ammo is just crap. However I don't think any particular brand of rimfire is immune to it.
Also shot placement is always key. In a hurry though, the necessity goes from shot placement, to get a shot off center mass and get off me. At least, that's my thought; I've never been in that situation and I hope I'm not.

 

[s4s4u]

Once again, it's about placement.

Which will be the first thing that erodes when one is faced with a life or death situation in the blink of an eye. If you are "stopping" squirrels at 25 yards you have all the time in the world to place your shot. Bad guys with guns, with a purpose, on adrenalin are a different story.

Enjoy your fantasy....

 

[Busterswoodshop]

The late great Elmer Keith once said, "If a man is shot with a .25ACP, he will be in need of immediate surgery." Naturally something bigger is better.

I have also heard they can get lodged under the skin and cause a nasty infection.

 

[Jack Ryan]

The .25 and the .32 acp are what I call get off me guns. The person I referred to with the .25 was a well trained shooter in Viet Nam at the time. A guy walked into the place with an AK, and was stopped by a well placed shot.

One imaginary guy got lucky one imaginary time and now we've heard the story for the 25 thousandth time. I heard about a friends grandma who killed a bear attacking her with her 22. Must make it a real "stopper".

 

[Peter]

Personally, I would not depend on a .25 as a defense round. I know of a SO deputy that got shot with .25 up close and personal. Now understand he was shot by a dirtbag who most likely was shooting said gun for the first time. Unlike the OPs friend this dirtbag did not kill the LEO, the dirtbag did hit the officer in the head but all the round did was take a lap and a half under skin plowing a furrow ending dead center of the LEO's forehead. The shot did though take the LEO out of the fight, which I guess is the idea in a self -defense shooting, stopping the threat, or in this case the arrest. Though only for a bit, the dirtbag was later caught and arrested.

 

[Star43]

I don't have a 25, but I have quite a few 22's....I would not want to be hit with a 22, and I Definitely would not want to be hit with a 22 Magnum.....not at all....

 

[el caminero]

One imaginary guy got lucky one imaginary time and now we've heard the story for the 25 thousandth time. I heard about a friends grandma who killed a bear attacking her with her 22. Must make it a real "stopper".

That may be lil ol bela, a canadian "first-nation"al who was stalked by a bear while picking berries like a hundred years ago. She hid and waited for it to get level with her and she put a .22 long in his ear, he went down, she put a few more there for good measure. The skull is in a museum sonewhere. the gun was like an old cooey or something that was only made in 22 long, for some reason. Supposedly a world-class grizzley at the time.

 

[DGW1949]

These sort of discussions usually make for a lively discussion, and sometimes an interesting mental exercise....
Myself, I refuse to carry any caliber of gun that depends on any sort of "magic bullet" to do it's job. I don't subscribe to the "carry the same ammo that the cops use" theory either, and learned long ago that hollow points don't work nearly as well as the "experts" say they do, and in fact, present their own drawbacks.
On a couple of different but related notes; My own experiences have taught me that statistics don't mean a single thing when one gets caught-up in a statistically rare event. And last but not least, I don't care for the modern-day plastic guns, simply because I've had to pistol-whip way more men than I've shot. Meaning that my common sense tells me that a plastic pistol would not have the same effect as say, a Government Model .45 does.
The rest of you guys can do as you want, listen to any ole opinion that reinforces your present choice(s), or even play the odds if you want to. But me thinks that I'll stick to what I already know works.

DGW

 

[kmoore]

These sort of discussions usually make for a lively discussion, and sometimes an interesting mental exercise....
Myself, I refuse to carry any caliber of gun that depends on any sort of "magic bullet" to do it's job. I don't subscribe to the "carry the same ammo that the cops use" theory either, and learned long ago that hollow points don't work nearly as well as the "experts" say they do, and in fact, present their own drawbacks.
On a couple of different but related notes; My own experiences have taught me that statistics don't mean a single thing when one gets caught-up in a statistically rare event. And last but not least, I don't care for the modern-day plastic guns, simply because I've had to pistol-whip way more men than I've shot. Meaning that my common sense tells me that a plastic pistol would not have the same effect as say, a Government Model .45 does.
The rest of you guys can do as you want, listen to any ole opinion that reinforces your present choice(s), or even play the odds if you want to. But me thinks that I'll stick to what I already know works.

DGW

I slapped a crook in the head with a Glock 22 as hard as I could. He went down like hit with a brick. Normally not the correct way to arrest a bad guy but I was justified. Short version was he robbed a store. I was working undercover on another case in same parking lot. At the store entrance a fight broke out between uniformed store security and this crook. The crook was shop lifting which is just a theft. But he fought the security and punched the crap out of him then fled. Leaving the security guy on the ground. He upped the simple theft charge to a felony robbery. I yelled police stop as he ran within feet of me and a uniformed PD friend. I gave foot chase as my buddy jumped into the marked police unit to drive and catch up. The crook spun his backpack around to his front as he was running. Stupid move on his part, but they do pull out guns that way. So mine came out. He suddenly stopped, spun around to face me as his hand was removing a knife from his pack. I was arm length away and could have shot but clubbed him in the side of his head.

 

[reuben_j_cogburn]

I've never shot a human..... but the day ain't over yet.... All I know is that once I put a bullet into an animal the fight pretty much went out of them.. regardless of how hard they were hit (near missed)...
There are exceptions, brown bears (and I'd imagine cape buffalo), get pretty amped up when shot sometimes.... I've never shot a brown bear.. but I know plenty who have.... and they can act very differently than ballistics charts tell us...
As for humans.... I'd think the fight is usually done once they guy realizes they've been shot.. I sure as heck don't want to get shot with anything!!
I'd fer sure carry a .22 or a .32 if that's what I had.... Ask me why I shot such and such with a particular firearm.... it's because it's what I had with me.....

 

[DGW1949]

I slapped a crook in the head with a Glock 22 as hard as I could. He went down like hit with a brick. Normally not the correct way to arrest a bad guy but I was justified. Short version was he robbed a store. I was working uncover on another case in same parking lot. At the store entrance a fight broke out between uniformed store security and this crook. The crook was shop lifting which is just a theft. But he fought the security and punched the crap out of him then fled. Leaving the security guy on the ground. He upped the simple theft charge to an felony robbery. I yelled police stop as he ran within feet of me and a uniformed PD friend. I gave foot chase as my buddy jumped into the marked police unit to drive and catch up. The crook spun his backpack around to his front as he was running. Stupid move on his part, but they do pull out guns that way. So mine came out. He suddenly stopped, spun around to face me as his hand was removing a knife from his pack. I was arm length away and could have shot but clubbed him in the side of his head.

The the only first hand report of a Glock being utilized in such a roll...Thank you...And good for you on taking the guy down....About that "Normally not the correct way to arrest a bad guy but I was justified".......
I was a Peace Officer in Texas for a number of years and the way the Law reads there is that a Peace officer can use any force that is necessary to effect an arrest, including deadly force. I ain't much for killing most people but I'll knock a common criminal out in a heart beat if I need to.

DGW

 

[protoolman]

The punch is my favorite, both in magnums and my LRs. I use Hornady Critical Defense in my .380s

I load the critical defense in my Charter Arms Wasp .22 mag. Used to be my back up gun now that I'm retired it's my only carry gun at times.if I go to the city I might step up to .45 auto. Heck I had a .22 mag derringer in a glove casually lying on the dash of my pickup for years just in case. Small bores are totally useful. Fit right between pepper spray or a walking stick and big hard to conceal guns.

 

[Bear Paw Jack]

I feel a rant coming on:
I see so many "experts" here ( and for transparency, I never claimed to be one) saying that small caliber guns are "Better than a stick" and it's starting to get to me, a small caliber enthusiast. Some politician tried to use bird shot out of a 28 gauge for defense and it didn't work. Did you know they make Thug Slugs (5/8 oz ) for a 28 gauge? A stopper. Even bigger for a .410, as well as 00 buck. That's stopper shotguns. Rifles and handguns in .22? Well, you know a .22/250 will take out anyone, but about others?

I must have missed something but I haven’t seen anyone here claim to be an expert. There’s plenty of information out there to refer to that is factual but as they say on investments past performance is no guarantee for future performance.

• Browning Performance Rimfire 36 Grain CPHP.
• CCI Stinger 32 Grain CPHP.
• Winchester Super-X 40 Grain CPHP.
• Aguila 38 Grain CPHP.
• Federal Punch Defense 29 Grain Nickel Plated Flat Nose
  Hornady Critical Defense poly filled hollow points""
  
  These are just SOME .22 defensive rounds.
  Now that everyone and their mother has body armor the targets have changed. Instead of front center mass, EVERYONE who knows anything is aiming for the side center mass, or the face, groin, knees, whatever. ALL of which are equally affected by smaller rounds.
  
  I could load salt rounds into my .410 and shoot someone in the face. or throat, or any other exposed area. Could do it with freakin' GRAVEL and stop them.
  
  My point? Sure there are bunches of guns that are shooting killer ammo, but most here are loaded up for DEFENSE, not a kill (though I am sure some are). As a defensive weapons, ANY gun- with the proper ammo- is a stopper ( OK, OK, leave out derringers and NAA revolvers -both 2 shots- that only shoot .22 shorts, or the 2.7mm Kolibri- though both my stop with an eye shot) BTW- If you can only use, say, an LCP, and post that you can MAYBE get accuracy at 10 yards, it's not the gun size. The bullet does drop a lot, but it's up to the SHOOTER to practice at longer ranges. Yes, the sight sucks, so you get an ArmaLaser trigger guard laser or similar and learn to compensate for the approximate 1" drop at 30 yards. The point is that it's not the caliber, it's the shooter and proper ammo of that caliber.
  OK, rant over.

I haven’t seen anyone here claiming to be an expert. There plenty of information out there that gives facts and figures if anyone is interested.
But like they say in investments , past performance is no guarantee of future results.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

I don't do "self defense", but if I did, it would be a PUMP SHOTGUN (cut down for my Bermuda shorts and knee-high white socks).
J.

Great minds. I use Shockwaves, which are short pumps as they come from the factory.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

I agree with you to a certain point. Some rimfire ammo is just crap. However I don't think any particular brand of rimfire is immune to it.
Also shot placement is always key. In a hurry though, the necessity goes from shot placement, to get a shot off center mass and get off me. At least, that's my thought; I've never been in that situation and I hope I'm not.

Though rarely mentioned here, I use Aguila for my range shooting. Well known as a top rimfire brand, and have't had a single misfire. No problem with CCI MiniMags or Blazers yet either. BUT, I will NEVER buy Remington or Winchester rimfires again.

We agree on placement. I go SIDE center mass. Still a big target, plenty of organs, but no breastbone, and if wearing a vest, no plate there. Harder targets but great stoppers are knees ( as in fighting, no legs mean no battle and a VERY painful hit), face / neck are instant stops. Harder to hit, but if you can,,,