Thanks! I appreciate you sharing that information on .22 ammo.
They Are ALL Stoppers
- Thread starter Joe Chartreuse
- Start date
Thanks!
I had that conversion work done by Dave Clements. He is no longer in business though. I removed the roll-mark on the cylinder and polished it.
I believe the most reliable rimfire ammunition I have ever used was CCI. Personally I don't really consider rimfire to be a viable option for self defense. If it was all that was available I would probably use it. I choose to have something else available.
I do understand some people have less strength, suffer from arthritis, are more sensitive to recoil, etc. They might need to use something I would not consider. Just for me I consider 9mm the minimum for self defense.
Larger guns are easier to shoot well than smaller ones. Larger more powerful calibers will get better penetration. "Shot placement is king. Penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."
For whatever it's worth I ain't volunteering to stand in front of a Daisy Red Ryder being shot, much less anything that uses gunpowder. I would still prefer to have something more than the bare minimum.
I do understand some people have less strength, suffer from arthritis, are more sensitive to recoil, etc. They might need to use something I would not consider. Just for me I consider 9mm the minimum for self defense.
Larger guns are easier to shoot well than smaller ones. Larger more powerful calibers will get better penetration. "Shot placement is king. Penetration is queen. Everything else is angels dancing on the heads of pins."
For whatever it's worth I ain't volunteering to stand in front of a Daisy Red Ryder being shot, much less anything that uses gunpowder. I would still prefer to have something more than the bare minimum.
Where is the line drawn at 'bulk' ammo; the loose stuff in a bucket, sure, but what about plastic 100 packs with each round in its own hole? Or a 250 or 5000 brick of multiple 50-boxes with the rounds neatly stacked in? Boxed, i see more difference being in the brand/speed/bullet weight and style for the purchase criteria. Buckets are for the kids to burn thru.
coachk64
Single-Sixer
Mostly I like to carry at least a 9mm. But on hot days, wearing just a T-Shirt, and not venturing far from my normal stomping grounds, I feel adequately armed with a small 22 in my front pocket. I wouldn't ever intend to try to take someone down if they are 15 yards away, and I don't believe I'd ever feel threatened by someone more than arm's length away from me anyway. I do know that with a .22, anyone who was close enough to be a threat would find that two in the body would be distracting enough that I'd have time to create some distance and study the situation, coming up with a plan to end the threat.
Where I hang out on a regular basis, I don't consider it plausible that I'd ever have to deal with a group that needs to be stopped for my or someone else's safety or survival. It is only when I travel to other less familiar territory that I make sure that I'm better armed, with a 9mm or .45 Auto (depending on the weather).
Where I hang out on a regular basis, I don't consider it plausible that I'd ever have to deal with a group that needs to be stopped for my or someone else's safety or survival. It is only when I travel to other less familiar territory that I make sure that I'm better armed, with a 9mm or .45 Auto (depending on the weather).
Speed is fine, accuracy is final. His preferred pair of .36 navies were despised even back then for percieved inadequacies.
OP
Oh yeah, I learned that very quickly- ouch.
But what .22?
The most common for well over 100 years has been the LR flavor. Shorts, longs, extra longs, have always been a bit scarce by comparison.
I could probably answer how many licks it takes to get to the center of a tootsie roll pop before I answered that.....maybe we should just ask Mr Owl and go with that.
Its closerbto bill cosby, Why Is There Air?
Old1215
Single-Sixer
The article I read had a link to a $3500 rifle. I supposed it was on the higher end. Accessories and optics could easily reach $5k. But I do understand it could take less to get one.Nothing but the best in my dreamsThe 22 ARC is a nice round. It will take a lot less than 5 grand to get into one tho, unless you are putting a $4,000 scope on it
You can get into an AR for less than $1k, easily. If you DIY you can get there for a little more than half of that, sans optic.
Of course you can over-pay for a fancy rollmark, but when it comes to the nuts and bolts they aren't much different.
I have read that statement before. BUT, many years ago believe I also read an article explaining it really isn't true as one might think. The .22 lr has shot many people, many in accidents, many underage, drunk, unknowing people about gun safety have been shot with 1. Not sure they killed more than any other cartridge on purpose or accident.
Let's talk just about handguns, the 9mm is and has been the choice of American gangsters for decades. The gangs are the main cause of shootings in the US. The 9mm has been a caliber used in war since WW1, most police in the world and US use or have used it. It's the most or 1 of the most popular CCW calibers in the US.
I am not promoting the 9mm (luger/ parabellum) just saying, as an example when you hear about 47 people shot in Chicago, DC, LA, etc. last weekend. The 9mm is used in nearly all the shootings and has been for many years. CDC says in 2023, 46,728 gun related deaths happened in the US. ATF says 45% of recovered crime guns were 9mm in 2022. US homicides, the 9mm. .40 and 45 account for just over 50% of deaths. Yep, .22lr are popular in suicides and domestic violence but not in other crime, war, police shootings or SD.
If using a small caliber, I would be aiming for the soft mass of tissue below the ribs. It's a large target on most, a miss could go higher into the chest or lower into the groin.
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And probably? under a vest hopefully.
Some random related thoughts:
People killed with a .22 caliber bullet includes those killed by a .223, that could be skewing some of the statistics.
If it specifies .22rimfire, it won’t say how long it took for them to die. It could be weeks.
Serpico was shot point blank in the face, with a .22LR and survived.
The 22 had been around most of half a century as a pocket defense piece before the 9 came out, and continues to do the same job. It had a huge head start, is still small, and still maintains a following among those who dont consider a 9 as being much smaller than a 45.
Larry flint took 2 44mags to the torso and survived.
Paul B
Hunter
I carried a MAB Le Chausseur .22 LR semi auto made in France for about three months while my .191 .45 was being worked over by my gunsmith. Neat little pistol that was quite accurate but it had one glaring defect. The pistol which looked a lot like a single action version of a Walther PPK had the tendency to break firing pin whenever it felt like it. I got pretty darn good making firing pins for that gun. I sold it soon after getting my 1911 back.
Paul B.
Paul B.
Necessity oft requires compromise. Sounds like they made them the same way you did...at the kitchen table?
Were those shooting and killing done at the same level the 9mm has since used as a service pistol starting in WW1, through today.? I know when the .22lr came out. I doubt the man on the street using it as a CCW was killing crooks with it at the same level the military, police, gangsters have used the 9mm, just saying. I don't doubt for a NY second some carrying the .22lr used it for SD.
Really, nobody knows, since i have heard the thing for nearly 60 years now and the nines may have caught up with it but it still gets said. Wasent it in the first edition of Cartridges of The World?
Yep, real stats are not available. We know maybe millions of rimfire pocket handguns were made of several different calibers in the 1800s. Yes, even more than centerfire handguns from the later 1800s.
NY city has stats on homicides dating back to early 1800s. But not how the person died. Stats are made in numbers and percent of population. A spike was during the civil war years. In pure numbers 1970s to 1990s had many times more NY homicides than ever any time in the 1800s. Few of the modern homicides can be contributed to the .22lr.
Paul B
Hunter
Actually that pistol was quite well made. The problem was in the design of the firing pin. The shaft of the pin is fairly robust but where it was cut down to form the tip of the pin the change from thick to thinner was at sharp 45 degree angles. A major stress point and was where the pin broke every time. I always thought that if I could shape a drill bit that was long enough to round off the hole in the slide and then make up a pin with properly rounded edges that this would cure the breakage problem. If it hadn't been for that firing pin I probably would still have that pistol today.
Paul B.
Any caliber can be a killer. Or even a stopper. What I want in a defensive gun is one which when used can stop a threat if I do my part.
My doing my part under stress and everything is moving will always be questionable. I`d love perfect shot placement but this is hard when everything is moving.
So I want the most effective caliber I can have under the circumstances. To me this means a long gun/PDW for home defense and some sort of major caliber for carry (.38/.357, 9mm or up, etc.). Whatever I can carry and employ well.
Any gun beats no gun. If all you can have with you or employ is a .22 or .22 magnum it beats nothing at all.
People tend to put wayyyyyyy too much time in `stopping power` while ignoring all the other more important things (avoid a bad situation if at all possible, cover, concealment, movement, SA, carrying EVERYWHERE, realistic training and employment). Or other important considerations (blast, flash, etc.).
My doing my part under stress and everything is moving will always be questionable. I`d love perfect shot placement but this is hard when everything is moving.
So I want the most effective caliber I can have under the circumstances. To me this means a long gun/PDW for home defense and some sort of major caliber for carry (.38/.357, 9mm or up, etc.). Whatever I can carry and employ well.
Any gun beats no gun. If all you can have with you or employ is a .22 or .22 magnum it beats nothing at all.
People tend to put wayyyyyyy too much time in `stopping power` while ignoring all the other more important things (avoid a bad situation if at all possible, cover, concealment, movement, SA, carrying EVERYWHERE, realistic training and employment). Or other important considerations (blast, flash, etc.).
Yes, any bullet will kill, however, we want it to stop the threat before we are harmed. I feel whether it kills is irrelevant.
You make some good points, however, I feel a sharp locked blade or fixed blade knife would be more effective than a .22, in a face to face.
A proper mechanic can always think of a better way that will improve the part so it wont break again. After that, getting it done, as in that case, just needs the right tools.
