Open Carry Suggestions?

[Mike J]

Lately we have had some threads about open carry. There has been some debate about whether or not it is a wise practice & a video posted showing a person's gun being grabbed along with the audio of him being killed. I have seen people open carrying in ways that seem really unwise to me. From carrying a DA/SA pistol chamber empty, hammer cocked to carrying in a holster without active retention way behind the hip, & other stuff. So, I thought maybe if we were to have a thread where we discussed what we believe are the best ways to open carry it might be helpful to someone.
I do understand that carrying in the woods or a rural area might be different than carrying in a more populated area.
What do you believe is the right way to open carry? What features should an open carry holster have? What position for it? etc.

 

[Jeepnik]

I suppose to open carry the only thing I would do differently is to either remove a covering garment or tuck in my shirt. Although tucked Hawaiian shirts just look odd.

OWB cross works either way.

 

[mirglip]

Open carry is for the woods and backcountry. Open carry in town only serves to make gun owners look threatening and gives us a poor image.

 

[blume357]

Not to start an argument be cause in someways you are right mirglip... but what about police officers? they open carry all the time? We sheeple have been indoctrinated into believing if we see someone other than a government official with a gun then it is a bad thing. the irony is this country was actually formed from the opposite opinion... government official with a gun is a bad thing and we need to fight.

I've carried concealed for years and this is with an inside the waste band leather holster with no retention strap.
I think if I was going to open carry I would change to an outside the belt holster with a good retention strap... possibly even one that takes a special move to release.
I'd also probably go with a full size pistol or revolver... no need for less with open carry.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

I have seen people open carrying in ways that seem really unwise to me. From carrying a DA/SA pistol chamber empty, hammer cocked to carrying in a holster without active retention

How do you know the pistol is condition 3 w/cocked hammer? Did the pistol have a round loaded indicator? (IE: like a Beretta 92/M9).

How do you know the holster didn't have "active retention"? Because it lacked a strap? Many holster have other retention features aside from straps.

I've already mentioned it in the many threads about OC here. But the only time I open carry now is when I go to the range in warm/hot weather. Other times were when scouting hunting areas, or hunting. Or on detail but I don't count that as it was in the line of work. I don't see very many "gun slobs" anymore when out and about. There was a time, for whatever reason, it seemed every time I was in a store, especially Wally Mart, local gas station or even one certain LGS, you would see some clod with a pistol in some cheap nylon holster dangling off a loose belt. Or one that really peeves me, clipped onto a pants pocket. But although it irritates me and other responsible gun owners to see that kind of display, is it really seen by others that much or are we looking for it? Several times I've been with my Wife or friend and I spotted something as described, shake my head make a comment...my Wife usually asks "what? who? where I don't see it, ohhhh, yeah that's dumb" and then her attention is right back at her list or whatever product she was scanning the shelves for. I often will watch other folks near the clods to see if they notice/react. Rarely do you see folks notice or react. Maybe that's the problem. I'm programmed to scan my surroundings and people. Maybe I should carry the shopping list and scan shelves and I'd be less irritated....

 

[Mike J]

How do you know the pistol is condition 3 w/cocked hammer? Did the pistol have a round loaded indicator? (IE: like a Beretta 92/M9).

How do you know the holster didn't have "active retention"? Because it lacked a strap? Many holster have other retention features aside from straps.

I've already mentioned it in the many threads about OC here. But the only time I open carry now is when I go to the range in warm/hot weather. Other times were when scouting hunting areas, or hunting. Or on detail but I don't count that as it was in the line of work. I don't see very many "gun slobs" anymore when out and about. There was a time, for whatever reason, it seemed every time I was in a store, especially Wally Mart, local gas station or even one certain LGS, you would see some clod with a pistol in some cheap nylon holster dangling off a loose belt. Or one that really peeves me, clipped onto a pants pocket. But although it irritates me and other responsible gun owners to see that kind of display, is it really seen by others that much or are we looking for it? Several times I've been with my Wife or friend and I spotted something as described, shake my head make a comment...my Wife usually asks "what? who? wear I don't see it, ohhhh, yeah that's dumb" and then her attention is right back at her list or whatever product she was scanning the shelves for. I often will watch other folks near the clods to see if they notice/react. Rarely do you see folks notice or react. Maybe that's the problem. I'm programmed to scan my surroundings and people. Maybe I should carry the shopping list and scan shelves and I'd be less irritated....

I know because I was looking at ammo at Academy & he came up & started talking to me about ammo prices/availability. When I noticed he was carrying I asked what he was carrying. He was carrying a FNX-45. A nice DA/SA pistol in a decent holster but the hammer was cocked/safety off. I questioned it. He told me he didn't like the double action pull so he left the chamber empty & cocked the hammer so it would be easier to rack the slide to load the first round. I should have encouraged him to either learn the correct manual of arms for his pistol or sell it & buy something he could use correctly. I just walked off a little dumbfounded that someone would do that.

 

[Mike J]

The truth is I don't think open carry in town is a great idea but I still encounter people doing it. I thought maybe if we put up a thread with some suggestions/guidelines about open carry it might cause someone who read it to think about what they are doing & how they are doing it.
My thoughts on it are simple. If one is going to open carry it is best if the gun is from the point of the hip forward. That keeps it where you can see it & have a better chance of controlling it if necessary.
Use a holster that has active retention.
Be aware of your surroundings.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

He told me he didn't like the double action pull so he left the chamber empty & cocked the hammer so it would be easier to rack the slide to load the first round

Ahh. It was through admission of the carrier.....dang, I thought maybe you had Super Man vision.....

 

[Mike J]

Ahh. It was through admission of the carrier.....dang, I thought maybe you had Super Man vision.....

It just freaked me out a little someone would do that.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

It just freaked me out a little someone would do that.

Well...what you described is condition 3 carry (although your carrier had the hammer cocked). Loaded magazine, empty chamber. Sit down for this, but back in the day that is how we trained and instructed watch standers and security to carry pistols. Even as a Small Arms Instructor/Range Master/Armorer I typically had to carry condition 3. This was mid 80's to early 90's. Granted, this was a 1911 pistol mostly. But at times, such as a hot day on the rifle range I'd draw a MOD39 and a shoulder rig...but still only condition 3 was authorized.

 

[Mike J]

Well...what you described is condition 3 carry (although your carrier had the hammer cocked). Loaded magazine, empty chamber. Sit down for this, but back in the day that is how we trained and instructed watch standers and security to carry pistols. Even as a Small Arms Instructor/Range Master/Armorer I typically had to carry condition 3. This was mid 80's to early 90's. Granted, this was a 1911 pistol mostly. But at times, such as a hot day on the rifle range I'd draw a MOD39 and a shoulder rig...but still only condition 3 was authorized.

I can somewhat understand that with military or a security company for liability reasons but for a person carrying their personally owned pistol to put themselves at a voluntary disadvantage doesn't make sense to me. What started the conversation was my looking at his pistol & saying, "You're carrying cocked & unlocked?"

 

[XUSNORDIE]

I can somewhat understand that with military or a security company for liability reasons but for a person carrying their personally owned pistol to put themselves at a voluntary disadvantage doesn't make sense to me. What started the conversation was my looking at his pistol & saying, "You're carrying cocked & unlocked?"

The military is the only time I had to carry condition 3 (unless authorized to carry condition 1 at certain times/places). When I got out I helped startup a private security company. Armed SO's for all accounts/posts carried condition 1, 2 or 0 depending on what they were carrying. Carry conditions were mainly for 1911s.....things varied when Glocks, DAOs and others came about.

My thought is get good instruction from completing a reputable course....but carry in the condition you feel you need to. While condition 0 or 1 is the most ready, and makes the most sense to folks, maybe others feel the reason/environment they carry for justifies condition 3. A good instructor will advise in a course the pros/cons/legalities of each.

 

[Mike J]

The military is the only time I had to carry condition 3 (unless authorized to carry condition 1 at certain times/places). When I got out I helped startup a private security company. Armed SO's for all accounts/posts carried condition 1, 2 or 0 depending on what they were carrying. Carry conditions were mainly for 1911s.....things varied when Glocks, DAOs and others came about.

My thought is get good instruction from completing a reputable course....but carry in the condition you feel you need to. While condition 0 or 1 is the most ready, and makes the most sense to folks, maybe others feel the reason/environment they carry for justifies condition 3. A good instructor will advise in a course the pros/cons/legalities of each.

The thing that got me was he was carrying that way because he didn't like the DA trigger pull. If one isn't willing to put in the work to learn the proper manual of arms for something then it is pretty obvious to me they should get a different gun. When I first decided I wanted to carry I spent 5-10 minutes a night in the garage with a Ruger P-series dry firing with a dime balanced on the front sight. I reached a point where I was more comfortable with the double action trigger than the single action one. I also learned that when I got tired of doing dry fire practice it was time to stop for the night as I didn't want to practice bad habits & ingrain them.

 

[Yaworski]

Not to start an argument be cause in someways you are right mirglip... but what about police officers?

Not too many years ago, I read an article by a young woman from Ireland who was visiting the US for the first time. She said that she was standing at a crosswalk waiting for the light to change when she realized that she was standing next to a police officer who was armed. Not only did that blow her mind but it left her feeling uneasy and unsafe.

Back when I had a waistline, I carried in an Bianch IWB holster around my right kidney. I usually carried concealed but I'd often take my jacket off and I never attracted attention. Either people didn't notice the grip poking up from my belt or they assumed that I was a cop.

 

[vito]

I believe that a single individual open carrying makes himself a target, but if multiple people are carrying in public areas then it serves as a real deterrent to the thugs and scum who might be considering criminal acts. That deterrence only works if pretty much everywhere there are folks visibly with firearms, ready to respond if needed to criminal behavior. So even if open carry were legal where I live, which it is not, I would continue to conceal carry until and only if seeing open carry became the norm for others and then I would join the crowd.

 

[Jeepnik]

Well...what you described is condition 3 carry (although your carrier had the hammer cocked). Loaded magazine, empty chamber. Sit down for this, but back in the day that is how we trained and instructed watch standers and security to carry pistols. Even as a Small Arms Instructor/Range Master/Armorer I typically had to carry condition 3. This was mid 80's to early 90's. Granted, this was a 1911 pistol mostly. But at times, such as a hot day on the rifle range I'd draw a MOD39 and a shoulder rig...but still only condition 3 was authorized.

The military is isn't necessarily the best example of gun handling decisions. I once flew with an officer that insisted handguns be carried condition 3. Threatened everyone with discipline if they violated his "orders". Amazingly one day he figured out why folks kept everything with a round in the chamber.

 

[Mike J]

I believe that a single individual open carrying makes himself a target, but if multiple people are carrying in public areas then it serves as a real deterrent to the thugs and scum who might be considering criminal acts. That deterrence only works if pretty much everywhere there are folks visibly with firearms, ready to respond if needed to criminal behavior. So even if open carry were legal where I live, which it is not, I would continue to conceal carry until and only if seeing open carry became the norm for others and then I would join the crowd.

I didn't really start the thread because I am pro open carry. Unless I'm going to the woods I am concealing. My intent was more about how to properly open carry. My hope is maybe someone will see this & it will help them make better choices about their method of carry & carry position.
If anyone sees a problem with anything I've posted or knows a better way please let me know. I'm fine with it if someone disagrees with me. I just ask that it be done civilly. If we discuss our difference of opinion we may both learn something from it.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

That deterrence only works if pretty much everywhere there are folks visibly with firearms, ready to respond if needed to criminal behavior.

So that makes it not about one's own self defense, but going on the offensive, with others, and promoting suggests engaging in a firefight with a criminal?......hmmm.....that will go over well in a court of law. Like in the old west...almost everyone open carried with gun belts and rifles/shotguns...didn't stop criminals much. Just insighted firefights.

I won't speak for others, but I carry to protect myself if warranted, and possibly whomever is with me, given the situation. Not to go out of my way to become the hunter and take someone out. I'm not in the physical shape or mindset to anything else but protect myself and my immediate company, standing the ground or cover immediately available to me.

Was I trained to seek a threat offensively? yes. But that skillset has long deteriorated and has no bearing on carrying as a civilian. In my opinion.

 

[XUSNORDIE]

The military is isn't necessarily the best example of gun handling decisions. I once flew with an officer that insisted handguns be carried condition 3. Threatened everyone with discipline if they violated his "orders". Amazingly one day he figured out why folks kept everything with a round in the chamber.

Different circumstances, theaters, zones and especially threat cons depicted what condition you kept your weapon. Not a single officer. The authorizations for various carry conditions were established for a reason. Your experiences must have been different. Mine were consistent for over a decade of my military experiences in various conditions from post watch, port security, SRT, prisoner escort, instructor duty, armorer, munitions transport, and executive protection among others. Carry condition for each depended on the weapon and what was authorized for the circumstance/mission.

 

[kmoore]

Open carry, I still continue to say it's dumb/stupid for a citizen to do it in most places at most times with most I see doing it. Mainly in large cities is what I am referring too.
If someone is going to open carry, they had better carry and use the gun as the maker intended.
They should understand carrying a handgun in open carry comes with many responsibilities.
The gun needs to be kept in the control of the carrier. A retention device is a must. Besides learning how to draw, shoot and holster they need to learn how to retain the gun if someone attempts to take it.
What holster they use depends on the gun they are carrying. Meaning the size, type of action, in a high, medium or low carry holster. Placement on the belt will also dictate style.
The retention device could be a strap or release button. Their placement should be hidden or close to the body.
A tight-fitting gun in the holster might be ok for IWB but not outside. Besides a person or persons attacking you to take your gun. Think about what if you slip and fall. Will the gun stay in the holster. What if you roll on ground to escape, will the gun stay in the holster.
Who is it that is mostly attacked to be disarmed while open carrying throughout the USA, a cop, prison guard, security guard.

 

[Jack Ryan]

I open carry where ever I feel like it. I can't help what freaks out an gunaphobe any more than I can poll everyone in a store before going in to make sure some Tinkerbell doesn't get freaked. I just block or ignore them depending on the options available on a forum.

It annoys me to see dog lovers putting their dogs rump in the public use grocery carts but I'm not going home and cry about it.

 

[Mobuck]

I live in a 'gun friendly' area where open carry has always been legal. I don't condone 'wild west' open carry as it's far too provocative but discreet open carry is acceptable.
I carry cross draw with the pistol butt unobtrusively screened by my left forearm. With a simple and non-aggressive crossing of my forearms, I can establish a grip on the handgun if a situation appears to warrant.

 

[Mike J]

I open carry where ever I feel like it. I can't help what freaks out an gunaphobe any more than I can poll everyone in a store before going in to make sure some Tinkerbell doesn't get freaked. I just block or ignore them depending on the options available on a forum.

It annoys me to see dog lovers putting their dogs rump in the public use grocery carts but I'm not going home and cry about it.

What carry position do you use? Does your holster have active retention?

 

[contender]

Different guns,, different body shapes, different areas, different activities, different needs, different mindset, different types of clothing, different temperature regions, etc etc point to the fact that there is not a single "one size fits all" answer to either open carry or concealed carry. OR,, how to do so.

But blume has made a very good point. Sadly,, too many people have been brainwashed into the mindset of being against seeing a gun on an individual. A few decades ago,, long before CCW was legal,, here in NC we could ONLY carry openly. As such,, one of three things happened. Either a person broke the law & carried concealed,, went unarmed, or carried openly. And a buddy & I went into a store,, where the owner asked my friend if he was a cop, because my friend was open carrying a handgun. When he replied he was not a cop, the guy got upset & said he was calling the cops.
When the LEO arrived,, there wasn't any stress or drama. The LEO was quite casual, polite,, and did not hassle my friend. But he also went into the store & had a polite but firm discussion with the owner saying he didn't want any un-necessary calls like that again.
By open carrying,, you can help dispel the attitudes so many people have about gun owners. IF,, IF,, you are calm, polite, explain the simple laws, and prove to them that gun owners are not the "bad" people they thought we would be.

I OC quite often. My choice,, and I have specific reasons. Rarely do I see negativity from the public. But I also constantly watch my surroundings. I position my body in a way that someone can not easily approach me & try & get my gun. And if I feel the need, I go to CC for a specific purpose.

But to try & make everybody do as I feel is NOT my job. If a person wants to only CC, FINE. If they want to OC,, FINE. And due to all the various differences & such, again, there is not a single way that is right for everyone & every place etc.

 

[DGW1949]

I think this is a timely subject, so I'm trying to get the thread back on track;

Strong side belt carry in a sturdy holster which features a retention device of some sort. Myself, I would not outside carry using anything less than a level-3 holster....but that's just me. I come from a police background and tend to look at this sort of stuff in a very serious manner....Many cross draw holsters actually make it easier for an assailant to grab your gun than for you to grab it. Ditto for most shoulder holsters. And make no mistake, it can happen faster than you think.

DGW
















tr

 

[Mobuck]

"Many cross draw holsters actually make it easier for an assailant to grab your gun than for you to grab it."
In what way and what type of cross draw are you referring to? It's not easier for 'an assailant' to grab a pistol that can only be drawn in a forward movement. I use a relatively inexpensive KYDEX holster with only the grip of the formed polymer as retention BUT there's only one way the pistol comes out and that direction in right in front of my body. A 'gun grabber' is going to have to defeat both my hands/elbows to reach the pistol. In fact, my left hand/arm will be dealing with this action while my right hand is deploying the knife from my right front pocket.
A moderate sized pistol carried cross draw in front of the weakside hip is relatively discreet and easily defendable.

 

[blume357]

I had a thought a couple minutes ago while reading all the replies but then got distracted by contenders.. let me take another sip of coffee and try and remember.....

Now I remember (a minute later).
It popped up when I was reading XUSNORDIE's post and it is obvious he has much more experience than most of us in various gun handling.
I took a class two years ago put on by two LEO's that teach prison guards and such.... In previous classes I was taught to draw and be 'at the ready' with the gun stretched out in front of you, arms extended, and pointed down. In this class that was frowned on because it is much easier for an assailant to move in fast and either take the gun away from you or move it so it is pointed in an unsafe direction. We were taught the "compressed ready" position which in my option is much safer.
yes, I know: this is slightly off subject but it is what popped up in my head.

 

[MaxMan]

Don't be this guy

 

[GunnyGene]

I see it's time for a refresher about carry.

 

[s4s4u]

It annoys me to see dog lovers putting their dogs rump in the public use grocery carts but I'm not going home and cry about it.

A dog's rump is likely cleaner than most peoples hands