worst reloading instructions ever.

[mikld]

Well, attacks on my reloading style or how I determine my load data, again, has no bearing on a simple question. I challenged all the "experts" that condemned black in .223 with a simple question; "Why?" So far no one has been able to answer. C'mon guys, principles before personalities, is this another "I heard it on the internet" fact or can anyone come up with an answer?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Well, attacks on my reloading style or how I determine my load data, again, has no bearing on a simple question. I challenged all the "experts" that condemned black in .223 with a simple question; "Why?" So far no one has been able to answer. C'mon guys, principles before personalities, is this another "I heard it on the internet" fact or can anyone come up with an answer?

If I offended you, I beg your forgiveness. I meant no attack.

My point was that silence on the subject is no recommendation for or against. But conservatism is the pursuit of safety is prudent.

I know little of your loading style and would not comment on it for that reason. I know you to be experienced and informed (from your long history of posts here).

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

There are several (bunch) of bottleneck cartridges that were developed long before the advent of smokeless powder. The reasons black powder is not used in modern cartridges are many. 1- not enough BP will fit in the case to get velocities expected from modern cartridges. 2- the fouling issue 3- why would anyone want to when there are powders like 2400,Unique, and others that give reduced velocity like BP without the mess.
BP fouling makes accuracy go south after only 2-3 shots in most guns designed to use smokeless. Safety is not an issue if properly loaded with a case full when using BP.

 

[Aqualung]

There are several (bunch) of bottleneck cartridges that were developed long before the advent of smokeless powder. The reasons black powder is not used in modern cartridges are many. 1- not enough BP will fit in the case to get velocities expected from modern cartridges. 2- the fouling issue 3- why would anyone want to when there are powders like 2400,Unique, and others that give reduced velocity like BP without the mess.
BP fouling makes accuracy go south after only 2-3 shots in most guns designed to use smokeless. Safety is not an issue if properly loaded with a case full when using BP.

I agree with this. Anyone who has shot black powder in any volume knows the absolute mess it creates...and then add to it the corrosive nature of the fouling. I wouldnt dream of firing black powder in my AR.

I can't even stomach firing corrosive-primed ammo in my milsurps...

My proof...I've shot pounds of black powder and cleaned up the aftermath...

My cap and ball revolver is gunked up beyond use after a few cylinders, requiring a rough cleaning. I only imagine how a direct-impingement AR would be clogged with goop after a few shots. Add to that the fact that black powder, being an explosive and not a propellant may not create enough gas pressure to cycle an action.

Can it be done? I'm sure, like any other reloading concept, it can be done once and success is relative...

Aqualung

 

[mikld]

Good Grief! Still can't get an answer! You know fellers it's OK to say you don't know. I wouldn't mind an honest "I read it somewhere" or quote a reliable source, but dancing around a simple question reminds me of career politicians that can talk for an hour answer say nuttin'...

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

I read some pretty good answers to your question.
The finished cartridge will not be equivalent to other factory cartridges.
The pressure will be off.
The velocity of the bullet will be off.
A semi-auto gun won't operate properly.
Black powder will clog any gun in a short amount of time.

Would it be dangerous? I don't know.
Would a black powder .223 be satisfactory? I don't think so, too many negatives.

Do you really have to have data to satisfy your question?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Good Grief! Still can't get an answer! You know fellers it's OK to say you don't know. I wouldn't mind an honest "I read it somewhere" or quote a reliable source, but dancing around a simple question reminds me of career politicians that can talk for an hour answer say nuttin'...

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

Perhaps I don't understand your question. Or, "What do you think would constitute a 'factual answer'?"

Why what?
answer: Because

Why not to do it?
We do not have data from a ballistics lab which demonstrates it is safe.
or, more simply, I don't know what will happen when I do and the risk is too great that something will damage my valuable firearm (or me) because I don't have the facility to test loads safely.

Why it is dangerous?
see above

What will happen if you do?
see above

Why?
There are too many other options which are proven safe, reliable and accurate that, absent exigent circumstances, using BP in a cartridge unproven safe and effective is unlikely to be worthwhile.

If those answers do not answer your question, please explain what sort of answer would satisfy your question.

(aside: I remember the original article that prompted this thread and note that the web site, "ehow.com" did take the article down shortly after I emailed them about the dangers we have noted here. The timing could be coincidental, though, so I cannot take credit. I do, however, wish I had copied the text of the article. The most dangerous thing about it was not the use of black powder, but (as I recall) the advice of filling the case without measuring, weighing or consulting a loading manual.)

We are all here on this Earth for benefit of our brethren. Some as examples, some as cautionary tales.

 

[Aqualung]

Good Grief! Still can't get an answer! You know fellers it's OK to say you don't know. I wouldn't mind an honest "I read it somewhere" or quote a reliable source, but dancing around a simple question reminds me of career politicians that can talk for an hour answer say nuttin'...

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

Tell you what...

Go stuff a case with blackpowder and touch it off in YOUR firearm and tell us what you find in whatever scientific format you find acceptable.

We've given you our experiences and compiled knowledge. Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Aqualung

 

[mikld]

Still speculation, no facts. What I do is irrelevant, my question was simply "Why not use black powder in a .223?" Not equivalent to a factory round? So, most of my reloads do not match factory ammo. Not enough pressure/velocity? Not enough for what? I reload my .223 to 22 LR velocities quite often. Not operate a semi-auto action? There are prolly tens of thousands of guns out there that are chambered for .223 that are not semi-auto. Black powder will clog a gun? Huh? All black powder shooting is very dirty, but not unsafe. I had a 36 cal Colt Navy replica that would only shoot 2 cylinders full before "clogging" the action, but it was safe.

I have continued this questioning, not so much for an answer as I have no intention of using black powder in anything, but I dislike "internet lore" or "bandwagon thinking" ( a respected member will make a statement on a forum and several members will agree, jump on the "bandwagon" just 'cause the statement was made by a "Who Said", a presumed authority).

So far I have only seen one answer that I can respect, and that was from Lost Sheep; "Because..." Personally I don't care if one wants to load black in anything, I just get tired of the "absolute" answers ("Never load black in a .223!!!) without any facts.

So with that, I'm outta here as it's a waste of everybody's time and no real answers...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I don't think anybody said "never load black powder in a .223".

What folks have been saying is, it is not wise to do stuff like that without a clue as to what responsible reloading is all about.

 

[Lost Sheep]

I think I have an idea of what mikld wants. An explanation of the interior ballistics of bottlenecked (true bottlenecked, where the body of the cartridge is significantly larger in diameter than the neck and therefore greater in volume than the tapered or slightly necked cartridges of the black powder era) cartridges that make BP (supposedly) dangerous.

Excess airspace, gas flow, erosion? Speculation and, as mikld said, "internet lore"

Fact is, we all operate our own little ballistics labs, but going too far afield (e.g. using BP in a cartridge developed AFTER smokeless came on the scene and was never intended by the ammo manufacturers for BP) CAN BE dangerous, but no one has really said exactly what the danger is. Ultra-light bullets that can outrun BP's flamefront?

Thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, physics, chemistry, interior ballistics.....

Sigh.

The original thread was triggered, as I recall, by the sketchy description of the mechanical steps of loading. The powder used was a minor flaw compared to the other defects of the ehow article, now, thankfully gone.

 

[mikld]

nope...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

This is part of the first page of the Hodgdon site. https://www.hodgdon.com

Quote> You must agree to the terms below before continuing.

By clicking the 'I Agree' button, I understand/accept and will agree to abide by the precautions and warnings outlined below. <end quote

------------------------------------------

Goex has no data for loading a .223 cartridge with black powder. Isn't that good enough?

http://goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

 

[mikld]

"Why?"

Since there is no one that can answer the question here, I went to my another forum and asked "Why no black in .223". I got some real answers...
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68816&sid=5e90e05b23bd515051f54d004b3b845f

 

[Lost Sheep]

I think I have an idea of what mikld wants. An explanation of the interior ballistics of bottlenecked (true bottlenecked, where the body of the cartridge is significantly larger in diameter than the neck and therefore greater in volume than the tapered or slightly necked cartridges of the black powder era) cartridges that make BP (supposedly) dangerous.

Excess airspace, gas flow, erosion? Speculation and, as mikld said, "internet lore"

Fact is, we all operate our own little ballistics labs, but going too far afield (e.g. using BP in a cartridge developed AFTER smokeless came on the scene and was never intended by the ammo manufacturers for BP) CAN BE dangerous, but no one has really said exactly what the danger is. Ultra-light bullets that can outrun BP's flamefront?

Thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, physics, chemistry, interior ballistics.....

Sigh.

Mikld,

Thanks for the acknowledgement and appreciation of my earlier answer, "Because".

I feel compelled to point out that some of the answers in the Leverguns forum echo (and expand upon) my other (admittedly theoretical) answers, particularly the one touching on the degree of bottlenecking of the cartridge (that is, the ratio of case volume to neck diameter, if extreme, making pressures higher, e.g. the wildcat 22-454, a 454 Casull necked down to 22 caliber or the 25-06).

I am glad you found good answers. I may join that forum. While I don't shoot leverguns, it looks like it is populated by knowledgeable, helpful and polite members.

 

[mikld]

I'm fortunate that I'm allowed to hang out there as there are some very knowledgeable fellers there. The sharing/info is not directed at lever guns only as anything remotely firearms related is discussed (even modern plastic and "Black" guns). I'm sure you would be welcomed to share your knowledge and experiences...

Every forum seems to have it's own "personality" and Leverguns.com is kinda like a bunch of "good old boys" sittin' 'round the pot bellied stove shootin' the sh**, having a cupo' joe...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

milkd, you still seem to miss the point that all of the answers and comments were criticizing the article from 2010. We were commenting on the article, which you have not read, and it was about more than just loading a .223 with black powder. This guy tried to tell people how to load a cartridge in a brief paragraph. His instructions were dangerous and the article in general was dangerous and for all those reasons the people that read the article said it was stupid and dangerous, etc. Whether or not black powder can be loaded in bottleneck cartridges like the .223 is/was not the point.

Go back and read the first page and a half again. I wish you would stop mis-representing what we said then and what we say now.

quote> I got into a "discussion" about loading black powder in a modern bottle necked cartridge; .223 Rem. After the first post about how absolutely stupid the idea was and several attacks on the person suggesting it, the forum group seemed to jump on the bandwagon and post how stupid the person recommending it is, and it should never be done <end quote

Your quote in no way represents the original discussion. Now if you want to discuss just why not to put black powder into a .223 consider this. It could be dangerous especially if you left some space in the cartridge. The shape of the cartridge is not 'suitable' for black powder, just like H-110 is not suitable for cowboy loads. Doesn't mean you can't do it or that we all agree about the practice.

 

[mikld]

Your quote in no way represents the original discussion. Now if you want to discuss just why not to put black powder into a .223 consider this. It could be dangerous especially if you left some space in the cartridge. The shape of the cartridge is not 'suitable' for black powder, just like H-110 is not suitable for cowboy loads. Doesn't mean you can't do it or that we all agree about the practice.

This is as close to a real answer that's been presented so far (but cartridge shape is not a factor; ie. 303 British, 7.62x54, 30-30 originally were loaded with black powder), but even that cannot be offered without a "semi-veiled" flame. If you need to criticize to make your posts more "credible", go for it, I'll let you have the last word...

Bye!

 

[NikA]

Of the three you name, only the one with the most gentle neck (.303 British) was originally loaded with black powder in standard use. I don't use black powder but am inclined to think the main reason there aren't more bottle-necked BP cartridges is the amount of fouling produced would be a barrier to repeated firing without cleaning.

ETA: did a little research here, and the only reason the Brits got away with BP in the original .303s was a special rifling designed to lessen fouling. This was dropped on the adoption of smokeless powder (apparently wore too fast, probably was shallower). There are no other small-bore (6-8mm) military rifle cartridges from this era that did not use some sort of nitro propellant that I am able to find.