worst reloading instructions ever.

[Snake45]

I guess this is for people who think that ARs just don't have ENOUGH gas system issues/controversies. :roll: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Pal Val]

I read the other instructions in that web site. Looks to me that they were written by people with the tongue firmly planted on the cheek. Either that, or the writer assumed that all his readers are idiots. :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[Lost Sheep]

Pal Val, I don't think it was the tongue in the cheek, but another part of anatomy stuck up an even less likely bodily orifice.

However, to the credit of the web site, they have removed the offending article. Their article about loading the 41 Remington Magnum is much less dangerous.

Now, I have risen to my own challenge and finally composed reloading instructions for straight-walled cases and kept it to under 200 words. (just the text in the quote blocks)

Take a fired cartridge case.

Remove the spent primer.

The casing expanded when fired; squish it down to the original diameter-resizing.

Squishing it down made it too skinny to accept a new bullet; flare the case mouth just enough to do that.

Stick a new primer in the primer pocket.

Put a carefully measured proper propellant (gunpowder) charge in the case.

Stick a bullet in the mouth of the cartridge and press it into the cartridge to the proper depth.

Squeeze the case mouth to 1) remove the flare and 2) where proper, crimp into the sides of the bullet.

(100 words exactly, so far. Which leaves enough room for a little safety warning

Every place the word "proper" is found above, you must consult a loading manual for the proper specification.

(Then we can expand on the process so even the original author of the article that prompted this thread can understand

Human fingers do not have the strength or precision to do these tasks, so
specialized tools are used. A press provides leverage and keeps things aligned so the ammunition will be straight and round. Forming dies shape the ammunition with precision. Typically, there are three dies and 4 operations:

1) Resizing/depriming,
2) flaring/repriming,
3) -no die required here- charging with propellant/gunpowder and
4) bullet seating/crimping.

Anyone want to try describing the process for bottlenecked cartridges?

Lost Sheep

 

[mikld]

I certainly wouldn't try stuffing black powder in any case designed for smokeless, and there is a ton of criticism in the above posts (kinda like a bunch of fellers telling an inside joke that only they understand), but would anyone care to share exactly what would happen if one loaded a .223 (or any bottle necked case) with black? Anyone try it or just repeating what they heard? Not so much for my info. but perhaps a new reloader is thinking "Why?"

 

[mikld]

So, a lot of "don't do it" and "the guy is an idiot" posts, but nobody can explain why? Makes one wonder, does anyone know what they're talking about?... :roll:

 

[Jimbo357mag]

So, a lot of "don't do it" and "the guy is an idiot" posts, but nobody can explain why? Makes one wonder, does anyone know what they're talking about?... :roll:

Didn't you just say,
Quote> I reload for 5, .44 Magnums and not one load came by word of mouth, forum, or magazine article. I reloaded my first .44 in 1987 and all my data has come from published manuals... <end quote.

...so just for starters let's just say black powder in a .223 isn't in the manual. Rule #1, don't experiment unless you know what you are doing.

...now if you are looking for the science, good luck.

...if you had read the original article you would not be questioning why we all said it was really really stupid. It was like some 10 year old trying to explain how to reload cartridges after seeing his father do it one time.

 

[Hillbilly Jim]

I dont know why you shouldnt reload bottlenecks with black after all the original 30-30 was reloaded with black powder and the 32 special was even easier to reload. Then look at all the old and odd cartridges of the 1870s and 80s .
The real problem is getting the case full of the right amount of black, this would be a real problem with 223. I routinely load 32-20 with black as well as 38-40 and a few 44-40.
Loading black in a bottleneck is as simple as determining depth of bullet in case then fill with black so when bullet is seated a little compression takes place. Simple.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I dont know why you shouldnt reload bottlenecks with black after all the original 30-30 was reloaded with black powder and the 32 special was even easier to reload. Then look at all the old and odd cartridges of the 1870s and 80s .
The real problem is getting the case full of the right amount of black, this would be a real problem with 223. I routinely load 32-20 with black as well as 38-40 and a few 44-40.
Loading black in a bottleneck is as simple as determining depth of bullet in case then fill with black so when bullet is seated a little compression takes place. Simple.

A black powder .223 might work in a bolt-action rifle but as far as being a factory .223 equivalent, not even close. I don't think black powder pushes light bullets very well. The point of the complaints by members here was the way the author went about saying how to reload. It was much worse than amateur, it was dangerous. This was the same guy that made a gun out of a pipe barrel and had a nail as a firing pin. He was all about 'survival training' and making do with around-the-house stuff. He even had an underground bunker in his backyard with booby traps set around it. I'm glad those articles are gone, but they were head-scratching for sure.

 

[mikld]

Well, still a lot of talk but no facts...

How I determine what I load has no bearing on my question, and the reference was about I don't get any load data from any forum or person trying to be helpful as 98% of my data comes from published manuals. Which has nothing to do with loading black powder in modern bottle necked cases.

So is it all "gun shop talk" or are there any facts to support the "don't do it!" expert posts?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Well, still a lot of talk but no facts...

How I determine what I load has no bearing on my question, and the reference was about I don't get any load data from any forum or person trying to be helpful as 98% of my data comes from published manuals. Which has nothing to do with loading black powder in modern bottle necked cases.

So is it all "gun shop talk" or are there any facts to support the "don't do it!" expert posts?

What weight do you give to the ABSENCE of load data?

The presence of (authoritatively sourced) load data for any given powder/bullet/chambering combination indicates that a lab has vetted the combination. The absence of certain combinations may indicate it is unsafe, inadvisable, unsuitably inaccurate or just happens to be neglected. But the absence suggests (not mandates, but suggests) the combination should be used advisedly, if at all.

Having said that, most modern loading manuals neglect black powder altogether, devoting all their pages to smokeless. Dedicated black powder manuals might mention bottlenecked cartridges. I would contact the BP (and BP substitutes) manufacturers to see what their ballistics labs have to say.

Lost Sheep

 

[mikld]

Well, attacks on my reloading style or how I determine my load data, again, has no bearing on a simple question. I challenged all the "experts" that condemned black in .223 with a simple question; "Why?" So far no one has been able to answer. C'mon guys, principles before personalities, is this another "I heard it on the internet" fact or can anyone come up with an answer?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Well, attacks on my reloading style or how I determine my load data, again, has no bearing on a simple question. I challenged all the "experts" that condemned black in .223 with a simple question; "Why?" So far no one has been able to answer. C'mon guys, principles before personalities, is this another "I heard it on the internet" fact or can anyone come up with an answer?

If I offended you, I beg your forgiveness. I meant no attack.

My point was that silence on the subject is no recommendation for or against. But conservatism is the pursuit of safety is prudent.

I know little of your loading style and would not comment on it for that reason. I know you to be experienced and informed (from your long history of posts here).

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

There are several (bunch) of bottleneck cartridges that were developed long before the advent of smokeless powder. The reasons black powder is not used in modern cartridges are many. 1- not enough BP will fit in the case to get velocities expected from modern cartridges. 2- the fouling issue 3- why would anyone want to when there are powders like 2400,Unique, and others that give reduced velocity like BP without the mess.
BP fouling makes accuracy go south after only 2-3 shots in most guns designed to use smokeless. Safety is not an issue if properly loaded with a case full when using BP.

 

[Aqualung]

There are several (bunch) of bottleneck cartridges that were developed long before the advent of smokeless powder. The reasons black powder is not used in modern cartridges are many. 1- not enough BP will fit in the case to get velocities expected from modern cartridges. 2- the fouling issue 3- why would anyone want to when there are powders like 2400,Unique, and others that give reduced velocity like BP without the mess.
BP fouling makes accuracy go south after only 2-3 shots in most guns designed to use smokeless. Safety is not an issue if properly loaded with a case full when using BP.

I agree with this. Anyone who has shot black powder in any volume knows the absolute mess it creates...and then add to it the corrosive nature of the fouling. I wouldnt dream of firing black powder in my AR.

I can't even stomach firing corrosive-primed ammo in my milsurps...

My proof...I've shot pounds of black powder and cleaned up the aftermath...

My cap and ball revolver is gunked up beyond use after a few cylinders, requiring a rough cleaning. I only imagine how a direct-impingement AR would be clogged with goop after a few shots. Add to that the fact that black powder, being an explosive and not a propellant may not create enough gas pressure to cycle an action.

Can it be done? I'm sure, like any other reloading concept, it can be done once and success is relative...

Aqualung

 

[mikld]

Good Grief! Still can't get an answer! You know fellers it's OK to say you don't know. I wouldn't mind an honest "I read it somewhere" or quote a reliable source, but dancing around a simple question reminds me of career politicians that can talk for an hour answer say nuttin'...

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

I read some pretty good answers to your question.
The finished cartridge will not be equivalent to other factory cartridges.
The pressure will be off.
The velocity of the bullet will be off.
A semi-auto gun won't operate properly.
Black powder will clog any gun in a short amount of time.

Would it be dangerous? I don't know.
Would a black powder .223 be satisfactory? I don't think so, too many negatives.

Do you really have to have data to satisfy your question?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Good Grief! Still can't get an answer! You know fellers it's OK to say you don't know. I wouldn't mind an honest "I read it somewhere" or quote a reliable source, but dancing around a simple question reminds me of career politicians that can talk for an hour answer say nuttin'...

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

Perhaps I don't understand your question. Or, "What do you think would constitute a 'factual answer'?"

Why what?
answer: Because

Why not to do it?
We do not have data from a ballistics lab which demonstrates it is safe.
or, more simply, I don't know what will happen when I do and the risk is too great that something will damage my valuable firearm (or me) because I don't have the facility to test loads safely.

Why it is dangerous?
see above

What will happen if you do?
see above

Why?
There are too many other options which are proven safe, reliable and accurate that, absent exigent circumstances, using BP in a cartridge unproven safe and effective is unlikely to be worthwhile.

If those answers do not answer your question, please explain what sort of answer would satisfy your question.

(aside: I remember the original article that prompted this thread and note that the web site, "ehow.com" did take the article down shortly after I emailed them about the dangers we have noted here. The timing could be coincidental, though, so I cannot take credit. I do, however, wish I had copied the text of the article. The most dangerous thing about it was not the use of black powder, but (as I recall) the advice of filling the case without measuring, weighing or consulting a loading manual.)

We are all here on this Earth for benefit of our brethren. Some as examples, some as cautionary tales.

 

[Aqualung]

Good Grief! Still can't get an answer! You know fellers it's OK to say you don't know. I wouldn't mind an honest "I read it somewhere" or quote a reliable source, but dancing around a simple question reminds me of career politicians that can talk for an hour answer say nuttin'...

I'll try again; Why? :roll:

Unill a factual ansewer is offered, l can only believe this entire thread is "Internet BS"...

Tell you what...

Go stuff a case with blackpowder and touch it off in YOUR firearm and tell us what you find in whatever scientific format you find acceptable.

We've given you our experiences and compiled knowledge. Just because you refuse to accept it doesn't mean it isn't valid.

Aqualung

 

[mikld]

Still speculation, no facts. What I do is irrelevant, my question was simply "Why not use black powder in a .223?" Not equivalent to a factory round? So, most of my reloads do not match factory ammo. Not enough pressure/velocity? Not enough for what? I reload my .223 to 22 LR velocities quite often. Not operate a semi-auto action? There are prolly tens of thousands of guns out there that are chambered for .223 that are not semi-auto. Black powder will clog a gun? Huh? All black powder shooting is very dirty, but not unsafe. I had a 36 cal Colt Navy replica that would only shoot 2 cylinders full before "clogging" the action, but it was safe.

I have continued this questioning, not so much for an answer as I have no intention of using black powder in anything, but I dislike "internet lore" or "bandwagon thinking" ( a respected member will make a statement on a forum and several members will agree, jump on the "bandwagon" just 'cause the statement was made by a "Who Said", a presumed authority).

So far I have only seen one answer that I can respect, and that was from Lost Sheep; "Because..." Personally I don't care if one wants to load black in anything, I just get tired of the "absolute" answers ("Never load black in a .223!!!) without any facts.

So with that, I'm outta here as it's a waste of everybody's time and no real answers...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I don't think anybody said "never load black powder in a .223".

What folks have been saying is, it is not wise to do stuff like that without a clue as to what responsible reloading is all about.