worst reloading instructions ever.

[Lost Sheep]

I think I have an idea of what mikld wants. An explanation of the interior ballistics of bottlenecked (true bottlenecked, where the body of the cartridge is significantly larger in diameter than the neck and therefore greater in volume than the tapered or slightly necked cartridges of the black powder era) cartridges that make BP (supposedly) dangerous.

Excess airspace, gas flow, erosion? Speculation and, as mikld said, "internet lore"

Fact is, we all operate our own little ballistics labs, but going too far afield (e.g. using BP in a cartridge developed AFTER smokeless came on the scene and was never intended by the ammo manufacturers for BP) CAN BE dangerous, but no one has really said exactly what the danger is. Ultra-light bullets that can outrun BP's flamefront?

Thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, physics, chemistry, interior ballistics.....

Sigh.

The original thread was triggered, as I recall, by the sketchy description of the mechanical steps of loading. The powder used was a minor flaw compared to the other defects of the ehow article, now, thankfully gone.

 

[mikld]

nope...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

This is part of the first page of the Hodgdon site. https://www.hodgdon.com

Quote> You must agree to the terms below before continuing.

By clicking the 'I Agree' button, I understand/accept and will agree to abide by the precautions and warnings outlined below. <end quote

------------------------------------------

Goex has no data for loading a .223 cartridge with black powder. Isn't that good enough?

http://goexpowder.com/images/LoadCharts/Cartridge-Rifle.pdf

 

[mikld]

"Why?"

Since there is no one that can answer the question here, I went to my another forum and asked "Why no black in .223". I got some real answers...
http://www.levergunscommunity.com/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=68816&sid=5e90e05b23bd515051f54d004b3b845f

 

[Lost Sheep]

I think I have an idea of what mikld wants. An explanation of the interior ballistics of bottlenecked (true bottlenecked, where the body of the cartridge is significantly larger in diameter than the neck and therefore greater in volume than the tapered or slightly necked cartridges of the black powder era) cartridges that make BP (supposedly) dangerous.

Excess airspace, gas flow, erosion? Speculation and, as mikld said, "internet lore"

Fact is, we all operate our own little ballistics labs, but going too far afield (e.g. using BP in a cartridge developed AFTER smokeless came on the scene and was never intended by the ammo manufacturers for BP) CAN BE dangerous, but no one has really said exactly what the danger is. Ultra-light bullets that can outrun BP's flamefront?

Thermodynamics, fluid mechanics, physics, chemistry, interior ballistics.....

Sigh.

Mikld,

Thanks for the acknowledgement and appreciation of my earlier answer, "Because".

I feel compelled to point out that some of the answers in the Leverguns forum echo (and expand upon) my other (admittedly theoretical) answers, particularly the one touching on the degree of bottlenecking of the cartridge (that is, the ratio of case volume to neck diameter, if extreme, making pressures higher, e.g. the wildcat 22-454, a 454 Casull necked down to 22 caliber or the 25-06).

I am glad you found good answers. I may join that forum. While I don't shoot leverguns, it looks like it is populated by knowledgeable, helpful and polite members.

 

[mikld]

I'm fortunate that I'm allowed to hang out there as there are some very knowledgeable fellers there. The sharing/info is not directed at lever guns only as anything remotely firearms related is discussed (even modern plastic and "Black" guns). I'm sure you would be welcomed to share your knowledge and experiences...

Every forum seems to have it's own "personality" and Leverguns.com is kinda like a bunch of "good old boys" sittin' 'round the pot bellied stove shootin' the sh**, having a cupo' joe...

 

[Jimbo357mag]

milkd, you still seem to miss the point that all of the answers and comments were criticizing the article from 2010. We were commenting on the article, which you have not read, and it was about more than just loading a .223 with black powder. This guy tried to tell people how to load a cartridge in a brief paragraph. His instructions were dangerous and the article in general was dangerous and for all those reasons the people that read the article said it was stupid and dangerous, etc. Whether or not black powder can be loaded in bottleneck cartridges like the .223 is/was not the point.

Go back and read the first page and a half again. I wish you would stop mis-representing what we said then and what we say now.

quote> I got into a "discussion" about loading black powder in a modern bottle necked cartridge; .223 Rem. After the first post about how absolutely stupid the idea was and several attacks on the person suggesting it, the forum group seemed to jump on the bandwagon and post how stupid the person recommending it is, and it should never be done <end quote

Your quote in no way represents the original discussion. Now if you want to discuss just why not to put black powder into a .223 consider this. It could be dangerous especially if you left some space in the cartridge. The shape of the cartridge is not 'suitable' for black powder, just like H-110 is not suitable for cowboy loads. Doesn't mean you can't do it or that we all agree about the practice.

 

[mikld]

Your quote in no way represents the original discussion. Now if you want to discuss just why not to put black powder into a .223 consider this. It could be dangerous especially if you left some space in the cartridge. The shape of the cartridge is not 'suitable' for black powder, just like H-110 is not suitable for cowboy loads. Doesn't mean you can't do it or that we all agree about the practice.

This is as close to a real answer that's been presented so far (but cartridge shape is not a factor; ie. 303 British, 7.62x54, 30-30 originally were loaded with black powder), but even that cannot be offered without a "semi-veiled" flame. If you need to criticize to make your posts more "credible", go for it, I'll let you have the last word...

Bye!

 

[NikA]

Of the three you name, only the one with the most gentle neck (.303 British) was originally loaded with black powder in standard use. I don't use black powder but am inclined to think the main reason there aren't more bottle-necked BP cartridges is the amount of fouling produced would be a barrier to repeated firing without cleaning.

ETA: did a little research here, and the only reason the Brits got away with BP in the original .303s was a special rifling designed to lessen fouling. This was dropped on the adoption of smokeless powder (apparently wore too fast, probably was shallower). There are no other small-bore (6-8mm) military rifle cartridges from this era that did not use some sort of nitro propellant that I am able to find.