Single Six loading gate and trigger return woes

[Single Six]

My Six's gate has always been stiff, and has gotten stiffer. A while back a retired smith friend of mine put a spring kit EDIT: trigger return spring - in it and polished the trigger/hammer engagement surfaces. EDIT: - no geometry changes.

Recently, the trigger started failing to spring back forward after a shot. First suspect would be the lighter trigger spring, but it doesn't feel like the spring is weak, it feels like something is catching or dragging. I cleaned (sprayed) it out and oiled it, and the problem seemed to go away with testing at home...but once I took it out to shoot, it starting hanging up again. It's almost like the "recoil" affects it. So, I took it back home and detail stripped it. It was quite dirty, and I found a silver flake of what looked like some kind of plating in the works. I figured that must be it. While I had it apart, I fiddled, filed, and polished the gate/spring engagement surfaces in an effort to make it easier to open. Upon reassembly and taking it out to shoot, I discovered that the cylinder does not release when the gate is opened any more, must have boogered up the gate spring, or taken too much off it, I was able to operate it by slightly pulling the hammer back to turn the cyl...and discovered the the trigger return problem is still there.

I'm all ears, thanks

 

[SAJohn]

While I have done only a bit of smithing on the new models I suspect the trigger is failing to return because the hammer is trapping the transfer bar in its' raised position. Just a bit of polishing where the hammer and transfer bar touch should fix that problem.

The loading gate problem might be that the spring slipped loose during reassembly.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Yes, the spring on the gate on a New Model will screw up the gate AND the trigger depending on how it slipped out.

 

[Single Six]

John, thanks for the tip on the trigger return. I though I had found the problem when I got that flake out, so I didn't inspect parts for burrs and dragging, etc. as much as I should have.

The loading gate spring is installed properly, but I think that in the process of reshaping/polishing it, I took too much off, so the cylinder latch doesn't quite fully disengage the cylinder, but if I pull the hammer just a bit, it's enough to release it the rest of the way. Need to get another spring I think, or maybe I can bend this one to put more pressure on the cylinder latch to fully release it. Only tinkering will tell.

 

[Single Six]

I'm starting to dislike new models (transfer bars)

A little bend in the gate spring cured the cylinder latch problem.

I polished the transfer bar, hammer, frame (had a burr in the hammer/transfer bar channel), and trigger where they all contact each other. 220, 400, 800, 1000 grit polish. Reassembled and seemed fixed.
Put some empties in to dry fire and no trigger return. The transfer bar essentially gets pinched between the firing pin and hammer and doesn't let the trigger return. Tried/compared my other SAs. Disassembled and further polished the hammer and transfer interface, and slightly angled/radiused them so the transfer bar would slip out more easily, but very carefully so as not to reduce firing pin travel. I also thoroughly flushed and cleaned the firing pin bore to make sure it wasn't restricted.

Reassembled, trigger still doesn't return with cases in the chambers. If I just barely touch the hammer, the transfer bar slips out and the trigger returns. I gave up and installed a factory trigger spring, fixed. I think the reduced power trigger spring needs a reduced power hammer spring to reduce the gripping tension on the transfer bar. What I don't understand is why is worked for so long and then quit.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Single Six.... William Ruger's New Model transfer bar lockwork is pure brilliance. The New Model has done more to protect and advance the practicality of the solid frame revolver than any other development in our lifetime.

The NM lockwork is signature William Ruger design: to have one part do two or three jobs. Example: loading gate open----1) blocks transfer bar (revolver cannot be cocked or fired); 2) drops cylinder latch; and 3) access to chambers for loading/unloading.

In so doing, the loading gate accomplishes a fourth task----the revolver is loaded and unloaded without touching hammer or trigger.
***
I suspect the little chip of metal played no part in malfunction. Too light a trigger spring indeed prevents TRIGGER RESET. Further, I suspect you may have had a fugitive trigger job. To test, cock hammer, then squeeze trigger as gently as possible: at hammer fall, trigger must sweep rearward. If trigger stays in place or----worse----kicks forward, you have fugitive sear engagement.
David Bradshaw

 

[Single Six]

David,

Thanks for stopping by my thread to lend your insight. I agree on the New Model's advantages. I have a Bearcat and prefer the simplicity of the New Models, until the transfer bar interferes with my light target trigger pull goals. .

I'm not sure what you mean by a fugitive trigger job or fugitive engagement....do you perhaps mean negative engagement? I am pretty familiar with hammer/sear engagement geometry from working on 1911s, just getting started into Ruger SAs. The geometry and engagement on this Six is OK, trigger travel is as it should be, with a just a bit of creep remaining. I still think the trigger return and hammer springs need to be balanced. I think it might also help to install a lighter firing pin spring as well, though not as easy.

I'm also interested in limiting overtravel on New Models.

 

[David Bradshaw]

Single Six.... don't even think about a light firing pin spring!

Single action trigger spring doesn't require balancing with mainspring so much as it must reset each time it's squeezed. Please reread my observation on trigger sweeping to rear at hammer fall as an indicator of correct trigger-sear/hammer-dog engagement. Bill Ruger and Bill Ruger, Jr., described the "REGAIN" angle engagement of hammer & trigger. This means that once you release a partially squeezed trigger, it tries or inclines to regain engagement.

It is absolutely wrong to "test" a cocked revolver by pushing on the hammer. Why? For one, there is no technique involved; pressure applied is completely arbitrary. Push hard enough and you can dub the parts. No, the correct test for proper engagement is to VERY GENTLY squeeze trigger: trigger should sweep rearward at hammer fall.

If trigger kicks forward, that is a fugitive engagement. Fugitive because it will continue to get worse. A fugitive engagement will lead to misfire as transfer bar drops below firing pin. Fugitive engagement is bad news whether revolver is SA or DA. When the trigger kicks forward in single action fire on a double action Ruger or Smith & Wesson, the trigger will catch the DOUBLE ACTION FLY (DA sear) as the hammer falls.

A bad trigger job does not usually involve the frame and is correctable with a new hammer and trigger, and perhaps other parts which have been tampered with. A correctly done trigger job may be retuned using the original parts; more likely, it will go many thousands of rounds without calling for a tune. Whereas, a fugitive trigger job often requires new parts, since metal was incorrectly removed, or removed from from where it should have been left alone.
David Bradshaw

 

[Rclark]

Disassembled and further polished the hammer and transfer interface

The transfer bar should 'not' be 'pinched' between the frame and the hammer. It should just 'fit' between the frame and the hammer. This sometimes takes some filing to get it to fit properly. Don't want to overdo it either. The hammer should not move (or 'very' little) when the trigger is released letting the transfer bar fall. Easy to test (gun empty of course) by cocking and then hold the hammer with thumb and pull the trigger back... Keeping the transfer bar up by pressure on the trigger and allow the hammer to seat... keep good pressure on the hammer and release the trigger. the trigger should fall into place and the hammer should not move as it should be resting on the frame... not on the transfer bar. Hope that makes since!

 

[GasGuzzler]

I ..... prefer the simplicity of the New Models

Huh? :shock:

 

[Single Six]

I ..... prefer the simplicity of the New Models

Huh? :shock:

Not having to half cock, de-cock, as on the Bearcat.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Oh, I thought you meant assemble/disassemble where the OM is clearly more simple.

 

[flatgate]

I can certainly recognize the conclusions presented here. Or, to put it another way...... been there, done that. I learned in my early years of shooting Bill Ruger's fantastic New Model Blackhawks that there's a lot going on within the receiver! I've "messed with lots of guns" (never had to actually scrap one....... yet...... ) and I've had lots of enjoyable and very informative "tinkering sessions" with the New Model lockwork. Single Six says he likes the simplistic designs associated with the New Model lockwork. Me? I love to take the New Model Lockwork and add functional "quarter cock and half cock" systems that sorta mimic Ruger's Old Model Lockwork. Hey, different strokes for different folks!
flatgate

 

[wheelgun1958]

FWIW, the old model gate detent spring has 16 turns per inch, is .380 in. long, .175 in. diameter with a wire diameter of .035 in. Cool info from my new book Encyclopedia of Modern Firearms Brownell 1966.