Question- please don't laugh

jimd441

Blackhawk
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Feb 28, 2009
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I have been shooting for 40 years but my shooting has been pretty much confined to rifles and shotguns. The handgun bug just bit me hard. I understand handgun caliber designations are by bullet diameter like rifle designations. What I don't understand is how a .357 mag. can also shoot .38 special. It seems to me that the barrel would either be sized for bullets .357 in. in diameter or .38 in. in diameter. Then there is the Blackhawk convertible which also shoots 9 mm. Three bullet diameters through the same barrel? Could someone help me understand how this works?
Jim
 
.357 mag and .38spl use the same bore diameter (.357) and the same bullets (usually .358).
The case on the .357 is the same as the .38 with the exception of being 1/8" longer to prevent chambering it in a .38spl gun and possibly blowing it up.
A 9mm has a .355 bore diameter and uses .356 bullets. These bullets will go down a .357 barrel just fine but accuracy can suffer.
Does it help?
 
Don't know all the history behind the caliber designations and the confusion. But the 357 use a .357 diameter bullet the 38 special also uses a .357 diameter bullet. The case is shorter than the 357. The 9mm uses a .355 diameter bullet which is close enough to work well enough in a .357 diameter bore. Really no different than some rifle cartridges like say the 308 winchester using a .308 diameter bullet which despite the name is the same diameter bullet as a 300 winchester mag.
 
Howdy

A 38 is not really a 38.

It goes way back to the mid 1800s. Early metallic cartridges often used what was called a heeled bullet in those days. The bullet was the same diameter as the outside of the case. A narrower diameter 'heel' at the base of the bullet was crimped inside the cartridge case. But the outside diameter of the bullet, that rode against the rifling of the barrel, was the same diameter as the case. So an early 38 really was a 38. By the way, if you want to see a heeled bullet today, look no further than 22 rimfire ammo. They are the only common cartridges still manufactured with heeled bullets. You will notice that the bullet is the same diameter as the case.

The drawback to this scheme was that the bullet was lubed with soft waxy lube that often picked up contamination in the form of dirt or pocket lint. One early cartridge of this type was a popular Smith and Wesson cartridge called the 44 S&W American cartridge. It employed a heeled bullet and really was a true 44 caliber cartridge. In the early 1870s S&W won a contract with the Russian government to supply them with revolvers. The Russians liked the S&W break top revolvers very much, but they did not like heeled bullets, because of the problem with the bullet lube picking up dirt. So they specified a modern type bullet, that was the same diameter as the inside of the cartridge case. That way, bullet lube could be carried in grooves cut into the side of the bullet. When the bullet was seated, the grooves were seated inside the case, and the lube was not able to pick up any dirt, it was protected from outside contamination. Starting to get the picture? The new S&W round was dubbed the 44 Russian, and it was very popular with target shooters for many years. But even though it was called a 44, because the case diameter was 44, the actual bullet diameter was .429, in order to be inserted inside the case. In 1908, S&W lengthened the case by about 1/8" and called the new cartridge the 44 Special. About 1955 it was lengthened again and stuffed with more powder and called the 44 Magnum. But all three cartridges used a .429 bullet.

Same thing with the 38 Special. By the time it had been developed in 1899, inside lubed bullets were common. True bullet diameter was .357 or .358, depending. But it was still called a 38, just out of habit, and because that was the diameter of the outside of the case. In the early 1930s S&W was experimenting with some high powered, high velocity 38s that could only be fired in heavy framed revolvers. If they were fired in a standard 38 they would probably have blown it up. So in 1935, S&W lengthened the case by about 1/10", so that the new round could not be chambered in a conventional 38 caliber revolver. They decided to call the new round the 357 Magnum, using the true bullet diameter in the name. The Magnum term was used because the president of S&W at the time was a wine connoisseur, and a Magnum was a great big bottle of wine.

By the way, don't get too hung up on cartridge names, they seldom tell the truth. Both the 30-06 and the 308 use .308 diameter bullets, don't they? Don't look for any logic in cartridge naming conventions, there isn't any.
 
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If you ever have the chance to pick up a copy of Cartridges of the World, do so. Great reading there.

reakin
 
Excellent info with NO laughter at all.
Around here,, we do not laugh at serious questions.
Besides,, the only stupid questions are the ones not asked. Stupid people are the ones who do not ask for an education yet try to do something w/o knowledge,, especially when the knowledge is available.
 
its weird how we confuse all the rounds by giving them funny names while the europeans just call them what they are
example 7x57 9x75
 
maxpress":tlrvi9xy said:
its weird how we confuse all the rounds by giving them funny names while the europeans just call them what they are
example 7x57 9x75

Don't give the European's too much credit. They also have some goofy rounds. The 404 Jeffrey shoots a .423 inch bullet (IIRC). Heck the 8x57 is closer to 7.9 than 8 mm.

TDF
 
Not a dumb question at all. Cartridge/bullet nomenclature is one of THE toughest things to explain to students in Hunter Ed classes. Unfortunately, while therie are some pretty good definitions, i.e. caliber and gauge or bore, the fact that a cartridge designer can call a new round whatever they want can make it real confusing.

It was for this reason I made a cartridge display board that showed as many 30 caliber cases as possible simply to get folks to understand that cartridge does NOT equal caliber and many different cases can have a variety of shapes but if they are 30 caliber, the hole in the end where the bullet goes are all the same size.
 
And give a little more confusion in this, a 38 S&W uses a .360 and shouldn't fit in a 38spcl or 357mag cylinder.

So as you can see, if you don't ask, we can't tell.
 
It can be made simple. I once stopped at a small hardware store way up in the mountains to buy ammo. The clerk told me they had only two rifle calibers. I asked which, and he said "One is .30-30 and the other one isn't."
 
Pal Val":7wdcuhig said:
It can be made simple. I once stopped at a small hardware store way up in the mountains to buy ammo. The clerk told me they had only two rifle calibers. I asked which, and he said "One is .30-30 and the other one isn't."

I like that. My closest story is asking at the small-town hardware store if they had shotgun shells.

"Sure, which do you want- .410 or 16 guage?" :P
 
Thanks all, my question has been answered well. The Blackhawk convertible is looking more appealing by the minute. If it came with the wood grips like the regular stainless version I'd order one tomorrow. I do think I could come to like the black grips though.

Jim
 
always remember a friend of mine buying 38spl rounds and driving way out of town to go try out his new gun just to find out they wouldnt fit into his .380
 
ruger convertables are blackhawks that come with a 357 cylinder and 9mm or a 45colt and 45acp. very versatile if you cant find colt ammo and dont reload.
the 357/9mm is a 357 barrel so the 355 9mm bullets dont "grab" the groves as well and can effect accuracy.
 
now if we could just get a difinitive answer on where "special" came from.

a guess seems to be that they are transition rounds invented about the time blackpowder and smokeless were both being used.
.38 1902
.44 1907

then theres further confusion with the .38 being called the 9x29mmR in europe.
 
Howdy

The 38 Special was developed in 1899 for the S&W Model 1899 revolver. I have one. Some books say 1902, but that is incorrect.

Special was just a marketing term that was popular at the time. 38 Special, 44 Special, 32 Winchester Special.

Yes, 38 Special was originally a Black Powder round. That is why the case is so big, much bigger than needed for a Smokeless round. 44 Special may or may not have been a Black Powder round at the beginning. Mike Venturino states that some BP ammo was cataloged.
 
jimd441, go ahead and get the convertible. Grips are relatively cheap. The first handgun I bought was a .357/9mm Blackhawk 23 years ago which I traded for a GP100 which I traded for a Mini-14. I still have the Mini-14 and have since replaced both the Blackhawk convertable and GP100 and do not plan on getting rid of either of them. My first Blackhawk shot better with 9mm than this one but that might have something to do with the fact that my eyes had 20 years less wear on them. Seriously, the 9mm cylinder is a handy way to shoot some less expensive ammo.
 
"By the way, don't get too hung up on cartridge names, they seldom tell the truth. Both the 30-06 and the 308 use .308 diameter bullets, don't they? Don't look for any logic in cartridge naming conventions, there isn't any" ........Ain't that the truth! Nice post DJ... :wink:
 
You can shoot the same .357, .38 boolits in a rifle chambered for the .35 Remington also.
 
If I am not mistaken, the 38-40 cartridge is the only true 38 caliber pistol cartridge.

I seem to recall this from an article by Jeff Cooper many years ago.

If anyone can confirm or correct me please do so.
 
pawncop":5tyrffae said:
If I am not mistaken, the 38-40 cartridge is the only true 38 caliber pistol cartridge.

I seem to recall this from an article by Jeff Cooper many years ago.

If anyone can confirm or correct me please do so.

Sorry but you're mistaken the 38-40 shoots .40 caliber bullets. They should have called it the 40-38.

TDF
 
Yep, there were converibles in 38-40/10mm, 32-20/32 H&R as well, may have been one in 44-40 as well but I don't remember the companion cartridge.

Just remember that there are only a few dozen actual bore diameters, but will over 3000 different cartridges. Some have multiple names too, like the 7mm Express / 280 Remington, and some changed when they transitioned from wildcat to commercial offering, 25 Niedner is 25/06 or the .30 US is .30-06 while the .30 Army is 30-40 Krag. Others retain both names, like the 5.56 NATO is .223 Remington, 7.62 NATO is .308 Winchester.
 
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