Perplexing 45 colt

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Wvfarrier

Wvfarrier

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So.....

I decided to load some 250gr "Ruger Only" 45 colt loads for my Winchester 1892 (24" octagon barrel)

These 6 loads should have been between 1400 and 1500 fps however!!!

#1- 1840fps (avg)
#2- 1848fps (avg)
#3- 1850fps (avg)
#4- jumped to 1901fps (avg) Recoil was AWFUL
#5- 1904fps (avg)
#6- 1913fps (avg)
The steel buttplate was beating the crap out of me.

I thought my charges were wrong so saved 1 rd of each group, pulled the projectile and weighed the powder charge. All were correct. These loads are WAY faster than they should be but every one of them shot .75" to 1.0" at 95 yards using a 3moa red dot.

The powder was H110, new starline brass and CCI large pistol mag primers. No pressure signs on the brass, except the brass is dirty which seems to always happen with 45 colt.
I do not think it wise to push them any harder, that top load is 1800ft lbs at the muzzle....from a 45 colt levergun!!!!

Anyway, I am perplexed out by the velocities.....any thoughts?
 
Also, you didn't mention the exact bullet you are using. We might assume it was Cast Lead in which case the Hardness will affect drag / friction in the barrel. If you're like many folk you may have realized the advantages of Moly coated or "dipped" bullets using Alox or a similar lube, which also can have a direct influence on barrel friction and velocity. Lots of variables to consider. Barrel length, as mentioned already, is likely the big factor, but don't forget that revolvers have a gap between the cylinder and barrel (pressure leak) which does not exist in your rifle.
 
OP...double check your powder charges on a second/backup scale.
Verify that you are not deep seating your particular bullet.
 
Wvfarrier said:
So.....

I decided to load some 250gr "Ruger Only" 45 colt loads for my Winchester 1892 (24" octagon barrel)

These 6 loads should have been between 1400 and 1500 fps however!!!

#1- 1840fps (avg)
#2- 1848fps (avg)
#3- 1850fps (avg)
#4- jumped to 1901fps (avg) Recoil was AWFUL
#5- 1904fps (avg)
#6- 1913fps (avg)
The steel buttplate was beating the crap out of me.

I thought my charges were wrong so saved 1 rd of each group, pulled the projectile and weighed the powder charge. All were correct. These loads are WAY faster than they should be but every one of them shot .75" to 1.0" at 95 yards using a 3moa red dot.

The powder was H110, new starline brass and CCI large pistol mag primers. No pressure signs on the brass, except the brass is dirty which seems to always happen with 45 colt.
I do not think it wise to push them any harder, that top load is 1800ft lbs at the muzzle....from a 45 colt levergun!!!!

Anyway, I am perplexed out by the velocities.....any thoughts?
Click to expand...
This is an extremely interesting test you are going thru! I have no long guns, an shoot with revolvers only. The max load I have shot in my Ruger .45 Colt 5.5" Blackhawk Flattop is the Buffalo Bore round that produces 1,224 f.t lbs., with an FPS of 1,450. The kick is huge!
 
"A Winchester 1892 is one of the stoutest actions ever made. It will handle anything a heavy revolver will."

I'll freely admit to not being very well educated on the Winchester line of rifles. But, to clarify & educated myself,, I picked up my newest reloading manual. Just got it as a Christmas present last night. It's first official duty was to look up the "Ruger-T/C Only Loads."
The manual is Hornady's 12th edition.
It says the ammo was to be used in the Ruger Blackhawk & T/C guns only. But it also goes on the say; "It should prove safe when used in the Marlin 1894S or the Winchester model 94 rifles produced in 45 Colt, but always start load development low & work up."

So it may be ok to use in the Winchester.

Gee, I got to use my newest manual!
 
contender said:
Let's see,, "Ruger Only" loads,, and put through a Winchester,,,hmm???

Ruger only loads are for handguns,, not rifles. And H110 is a known hot powder. I would switch powders for the loads in a Winchester.
Click to expand...
The 1892 action, with it's twin locking lugs, is more than strong enough to handle Magnum pressures. In fact, stronger than the Blackhawk. The "Ruger only" warning applies to handguns -- and , actually, not only Rugers, as big-bore revolvers from NAA, Freedom Arms, and others are perfectly fine with them, too.
 
Last edited:
Wvfarrier said:
So.....

I decided to load some 250gr "Ruger Only" 45 colt loads for my Winchester 1892 (24" octagon barrel)

These 6 loads should have been between 1400 and 1500 fps however!!!

#1- 1840fps (avg)
#2- 1848fps (avg)
#3- 1850fps (avg)
#4- jumped to 1901fps (avg) Recoil was AWFUL
#5- 1904fps (avg)
#6- 1913fps (avg)
The steel buttplate was beating the crap out of me.

I thought my charges were wrong so saved 1 rd of each group, pulled the projectile and weighed the powder charge. All were correct. These loads are WAY faster than they should be but every one of them shot .75" to 1.0" at 95 yards using a 3moa red dot.

The powder was H110, new starline brass and CCI large pistol mag primers. No pressure signs on the brass, except the brass is dirty which seems to always happen with 45 colt.
I do not think it wise to push them any harder, that top load is 1800ft lbs at the muzzle....from a 45 colt levergun!!!!

Anyway, I am perplexed out by the velocities.....any thoughts?
Click to expand...
I no longer reload any ammo, and when I did 40 years ago it was with a .357 MAG ROUND. I STILL HAVE SOME i RELOADED BACK THEN! Whenever I watch a show/video that uses a chronometer, the speeds varied 10-20%, WITH SUPPOSEDLY THE VERY SAME AMMO., so they always took an average. The speeds of 1,400 (Grizzly)-1,500 (Buffalo Bore) fps are revolver speeds, so why were you expecting these speeds from your long gun? the higher speeds from the revolver expectant values makes perfect sense. Also, if you with any of Tim's (Buffalo Bore owner) You Tube videos, he explains that sometimes a longer rifle barrel will reduce the bullet speed.
 
contender said:
Let's see,, "Ruger Only" loads,, and put through a Winchester,,,hmm???

Ruger only loads are for handguns,, not rifles. And H110 is a known hot powder. I would switch powders for the loads in a Winchester.
Click to expand...
I have trouble with "Ruger only loads are for handguns". This is not quite true. It is a warning about shooting these hot loads only on Ruger handguns, and a few others. But the ammo power and ammo is AVAILABLE for 'ANY GUN' including any rifle that can shoot this caliber, but be aware with handguns!
 
I'll shoot a Ruger only load in an 1892 way before an 1894. The heavier and weaker 1894 has only one advantage, it's easier to take apart and put back together.
 
What kind of groups were you getting.
Same gun with Unique and cast gives me great groups BUT when zeroed at 50 gives 10 in drop at 100.
 
Velocity sounds about right.

The "TC/Ruger Blackhawk only" warning hasn't been all inclusive for years. Also safe in the Colt Anaconda, Dan Wesson, Redhawk, BFR, Seville/Abilene, Freedom Arms 83 & 97.

The modern 1892 is stronger than any .45Colt Blackhawk, by a fair margin.

Marlin and Winchester 1894's - 40,000psi
Rossi, Winchester and other modern 1892's - 50,000psi

At least according to Paco Kelly and leading levergunsmith Mic McPherson.


vlavalle said:
This is an extremely interesting test you are going thru! I have no long guns, an shoot with revolvers only. The max load I have shot in my Ruger .45 Colt 5.5" Blackhawk Flattop is the Buffalo Bore round that produces 1,224 f.t lbs., with an FPS of 1,450. The kick is huge!
Click to expand...
That is an overload in the mid-frame Blackhawk. Nearly 10,000psi over what they're rated for. Read your Buffalo Bore literature.


GasGuzzler said:
Like I have said, no need for a .429 magnum here.
Click to expand...
The .44 will do the same thing with factory ammo and without overworking the brass. I got rid of my Winchester 1892 because it wouldn't seal the chamber with anything but "Ruger only" loads. The .45 leverguns are plagued with oversized chambers. The .44's are not.
 
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vlavalle said:
This is an extremely interesting test you are going thru! I have no long guns, an shoot with revolvers only. The max load I have shot in my Ruger .45 Colt 5.5" Blackhawk Flattop is the Buffalo Bore round that produces 1,224 f.t lbs., with an FPS of 1,450. The kick is huge!
Click to expand...
I load a cast 310 grain at 1200 out of a 4" Redhawk, it has a bit of kick.
 
Cal30 1906 said:
I load a cast 310 grain at 1200 out of a 4" Redhawk, it has a bit of kick.
Click to expand...
Cal30, I looked at my ballistics file uer the .45 caliber section, and I see the following: Grizzly makes a .45 COLT '+P ROUND of 300 gr (hard cast) at 1225 fps, resulting in 1,000 ft. lbs., but it is a bit expensive at $2.82 per round. They also make a couple of 'Cowboy' rounds which are very weak, as all cowboy rounds are. HSM MAKES a 300 gr .45 COLT round and one at 325 gr both at 1,155 fps, which delivers 881 and 963 ft. lbs. at $1.0 or $2.0per round, depending on the source. Double Tap makes a 360 gr .45 COLT round at 1,200 fps which delivers 1,151 ft. lbs., priced st $1.33 per round. Garrett makes a 365 gr 45 Colt ammo at 1,250 fps (delivers1,266 ft. lbs.) , and a 405 gr round also at 1,250 (delivers 1,405 ft. lbs) both for $2.40 per round. Grizzly makes a 300 gr round at 1,223 delivering 1,000 ft. lbs, and also a 335 gr round at 1,175, delivering 1,027 ft. lbs. Underwood makes a 300 gr round at 1,300 fps, delivering 1,126 ft. lbs and realize that you reload your own ammo, and hopefully for a lot less!, but you now have what ammo manufacturers make for the same round you build.

I ASSUME THAT YOUR Redhawk is actaually 4.2". I am looking into getting this very same gun, but I am a bit leary about its very short barrel, and the resultant kick.
 
vlavalle said:
Cal30, I looked at my ballistics file uer the .45 caliber section, and I see the following: Grizzly makes a .45 COLT '+P ROUND of 300 gr (hard cast) at 1225 fps, resulting in 1,000 ft. lbs., but it is a bit expensive at $2.82 per round. They also make a couple of 'Cowboy' rounds which are very weak, as all cowboy rounds are. HSM MAKES a 300 gr .45 COLT round and one at 325 gr both at 1,155 fps, which delivers 881 and 963 ft. lbs. at $1.0 or $2.0per round, depending on the source. Double Tap makes a 360 gr .45 COLT round at 1,200 fps which delivers 1,151 ft. lbs., priced st $1.33 per round. Garrett makes a 365 gr 45 Colt ammo at 1,250 fps (delivers1,266 ft. lbs.) , and a 405 gr round also at 1,250 (delivers 1,405 ft. lbs) both for $2.40 per round. Grizzly makes a 300 gr round at 1,223 delivering 1,000 ft. lbs, and also a 335 gr round at 1,175, delivering 1,027 ft. lbs. Underwood makes a 300 gr round at 1,300 fps, delivering 1,126 ft. lbs and realize that you reload your own ammo, and hopefully for a lot less!, but you now have what ammo manufacturers make for the same round you build.

I ASSUME THAT YOUR Redhawk is actaually 4.2". I am looking into getting this very same gun, but I am a bit leary about its very short barrel, and the resultant kick.
Click to expand...
Yes my Redhawk is 4.2", it the older 5032 1 piece barrel model that accepts moon clips to shoot 45 acp.
I do load for everything I shoot and cast and powder coat my bullets. Im still working with components that I bought 30 years again in some cases so I do indeed shoot some pretty exotic rounds for a small fraction of what retail is going for. That Garrett 405 grain round doesn't seem to appealing to me , I'm sure its recoil is monumental! I have been working with my Smith 460V using 350 grain cast bullets running at 1620 fps and it is brutal and way more power than needed but my wife bought it for my birthday so I feel obligated to run it and experiment with it.
But when its all said and done my 310 cast at 1200 fps is all a guy would ever need in most situations.
Good shooting and Merry Christmas 👍
 
Ouch.

I load 8.2 grains universal under a 255 grain Keith. Through my marlin. It’s pleasant and accurate and will do most of what I want the load to do.

I have shot the buffalo bore heavy 300 JSPs but they’re not all that pleasant. Perhaps for more nasty game in the rifle but my comfortable hand load is enough for me.
 
TheTexasRAT said:
As far as running 14,000psi rounds through it it is no problem at all.
Click to expand...
Its a handful at that velocity with that bullet but you can experiment a little.
I also run a 250 grain cast @ 1120 fps and the recoil isn't bad at all.
The thing about the particular model 5032 ( 1 piece barrel) and the model 5050 ( 2 piece barrel) is the fact you can shoot 45 acp and 45 Colt and run them anywhere from mild to wild.
The 4.2" handles very nicely and carries nicely. I'm not a fan of long barrels getting in the way of seat belts or digging into your ribs when sitting down.
 
Cal30 1906 said:
Its a handful at that velocity with that bullet but you can experiment a little.
I also run a 250 grain cast @ 1120 fps and the recoil isn't bad at all.
The thing about the particular model 5032 ( 1 piece barrel) and the model 5050 ( 2 piece barrel) is the fact you can shoot 45 acp and 45 Colt and run them anywhere from mild to wild.
The 4.2" handles very nicely and carries nicely. I'm not a fan of long barrels getting in the way of seat belts or digging into your ribs when sitting down.
Click to expand...
I have the two piece barrel. Anyway with standard pressure rounds it is very nice to shoot. And I have no desire to shoot higher pressure rounds.
 
Last edited:
Cal30 1906 said:
Its a handful at that velocity with that bullet but you can experiment a little.
I also run a 250 grain cast @ 1120 fps and the recoil isn't bad at all.
The thing about the particular model 5032 ( 1 piece barrel) and the model 5050 ( 2 piece barrel) is the fact you can shoot 45 acp and 45 Colt and run them anywhere from mild to wild.
The 4.2" handles very nicely and carries nicely. I'm not a fan of long barrels getting in the way of seat belts or digging into your ribs when sitting down.
Click to expand...
it is not clear t o me which model Ruger Redhawk you can shoot the .45 ACP with moon clips. You mention them both in the same sentence, so it is not clear at all.. I am looking at buying a Ruger .45 Colt Redhawk gun soon. I am not too fond of the short 4.2' BARREL, AND WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE IT TO 5.5 or 6 or 6.5". Can I do this with either of these models?
 
vlavalle said:
it is not clear t o me which model Ruger Redhawk you can shoot the .45 ACP with moon clips. You mention them both in the same sentence, so it is not clear at all.. I am looking at buying a Ruger .45 Colt Redhawk gun soon. I am not too fond of the short 4.2' BARREL, AND WOULD LIKE TO CHANGE IT TO 5.5 or 6 or 6.5". Can I do this with either of these models?
Click to expand...
The only ones made for that is the model 5032 now discontinued and the newer model 5050 they are with the 4.2 barrel and both have the round butt. If the model you are looking at has a square butt it will be 45 Colt only.
Jack Huntington in Reno Nevada will ream the face of the cylinder so you can shoot 45 acp. Not all moon clips are the same thickness so you would need to know what he reamed for and he's done enough of them he'd specify which thickness of moon clip you would need. In my factory model 5032 I have to use Ruger moon clips that are thin or I would need to shave them down. I have a Smith model 625JM in 45 acp and the moon clips are not interchange between them.
 
Cal30 1906 said:
The only ones made for that is the model 5032 now discontinued and the newer model 5050 they are with the 4.2 barrel and both have the round butt. If the model you are looking at has a square butt it will be 45 Colt only.
Jack Huntington in Reno Nevada will ream the face of the cylinder so you can shoot 45 acp. Not all moon clips are the same thickness so you would need to know what he reamed for and he's done enough of them he'd specify which thickness of moon clip you would need. In my factory model 5032 I have to use Ruger moon clips that are thin or I would need to shave them down. I have a Smith model 625JM in 45 acp and the moon clips are not interchange between them.
Click to expand...
You could buy the longer barrel model and ship it Jack Huntington.
 
Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while: RE the Redhawk that accepts moon-clipped 45acp and 45Colt from the same cylinder.
To make room for a moon clip, the cylinder face needs to be shaved down on the inside by some amount, say "x". Then when a 45Colt is chambered, there would be a bit of the case, "x" worth, that us unsupported toward the centerline of the cylinder.
1) Is this analysis correct?
2) If so, when shooting heavy 45Colt loads, might we get a "Ruger Smile" in the base of the case, like those reported for Glock shooting +P+ 40S&W ?
 
ChrisL said:
Here's a question that's been bothering me for a while: RE the Redhawk that accepts moon-clipped 45acp and 45Colt from the same cylinder.
To make room for a moon clip, the cylinder face needs to be shaved down on the inside by some amount, say "x". Then when a 45Colt is chambered, there would be a bit of the case, "x" worth, that us unsupported toward the centerline of the cylinder.
1) Is this analysis correct?
2) If so, when shooting heavy 45Colt loads, might we get a "Ruger Smile" in the base of the case, like those reported for Glock shooting +P+ 40S&W ?
Click to expand...

1) Yes, but...
2) The unsupported portion of the case (~.040") is smaller than the thickness of the solid brass case head, so as long as your load is under the flow stress of hardened cartridge brass (~70ksi)*, you will not ever have an issue with brass deformation in this area.

*Note: ~70ksi is the general flow stress of hardened cartridge brass, not a comment on the max pressure of any cartridge in any firearm. Sort of like a universal speed limit, brass becomes "single use" when loaded to this pressure level (whether or not firearm can handle it).
 
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