Can you release slide on empty chamber?

[hpman66]

I apologize up front if this topic has already been talked about before. I just talked to a friend that has a SA 1911. He said that their operation & safety manuel has a "Notice"(p. 10) that says that you should never press the slide stop and let the slide slam forward on an empty chamber. The operation & safety manuel(I downloaded the pdf) goes on to say that this practice could result in "damage to the breech face on the barrel and undue stress on all action parts, including the hammer and the sear". This is especially true if one's 1911 has had an action job. The proper procedure is to hold/control the slide one hand, release the slide stop with the other, and gentlely let the slide go forward while under control(by the operator). Has anyone else heard this before(I and no one else I have talked to did). I have always released the slide stop and let the slide fly foward(even if there wasn't a round in the magazine). I even called Ruger at Scottsdale and they said that they didn't have any instructions like this in their operation & safety manuel.

PDF for SA 1911:
http://people.cs.clemson.edu/~westall/851/springfield_1911.pdf

 

[WIL TERRY]

NEWS to me. NOW....stop and think....how are these claims even possible ?? If the recoil spring is really that powerful, shooting the gun will really beat the crap out of it in no time flat. The "notice"[p.10] I'd say is all but pretty danged silly.

 

[DenverGT]

I've always been told not the drop the slide on an empty gun, and I won't do it on any gun I handle. The slide dropping with a loaded mag will absorb some of the energy stripping and chambering a round, without a round to chamber, that energy must hit the parts of the gun harder than in normal operation. I use snap-caps when I need to drop the slide (like testing for hammer follow).

Am I being over-cautious? maybe. But I don't see a downside to handling my guns better than needed. I count on them to save me when I carry them.

 

[Pat-inCO]

If the recoil spring is really that powerful, shooting the gun will really beat the crap out of it in no time flat.

Don't forget that chambering a round requires energy.
In expending that energy, the slide is slowed down appreciably.

 

[DSDMMAT]

Just like dry firing a gun, there are somethings that "should" not be done.

 

[Jayhawkhuntclub]

Dryfiring most guns is perfectly fine. Dropping the slide on an empty chamber is not.

 

[WIL TERRY]

I'VE BEEN TOLD THE SAME THING, guys, 60 years ago. I did not believe it then and do not believe it now. SHOW ME THE DAMAGE !!! On the other hand I never use the slide stop and let the slide down by hand. Camp Perry bullseye shooters hold the hammer back and let the slide down by hand. THINK of the differences and why.

 

[LaneP]

I don't do it, but that's me. I feel the cushioning affect of stripping a round and running it into the chamber decelerates the slide sufficiently to "soften" the slam. The wear that occurs in this way is by design. Will it hurt if done occasionally? No.

There some guns that are designed from the outset to regularly slam shut on an empty chamber, such as the AK-47.

I put letting the slide slam on empty in the same category as flipping the wrist to slam a cylinder into the frame on a swing out DA revolver. Perhaps it's not necessarily going to damage it, but guns are tools, and I like to take care of my tools to the greatest extent possible.

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

I HAVE FOUND AND BELIEVE THE SR1911 IS BUILT TO NEARLY DISALLOW THE DROPPING OF THE SLIDE HOLDBACK, ALLOWING THE SLIDE TO SLAM FORWARD ON AN EMPTY CHAMBER UNLESS THE (ON ALL OF MY SR1911'S)FACTORY SUPPLIED CLIP IS FIRST DROPPED/DISENGAGED. I FURTHER SUGGEST IT IS THE BUILD CONFIGUARATION OF THE FACTORY CLIP THAT CAUSES THIS. NON RUGER CLIPS DO NOT ALLOW THIS "STOPPAGE" SITUATION AND THE SLIDE STOP GOES DOWN EASILY.........JUST MY THEORY AND I DO NOT ALLOW "SLAM SLIDING" OF MY 1911'S, ANY OF THEM. BTW, S&W techs say "Do not do that, period" when I asked years ago after their 1911 had entered the marketplace. 8)

 

[Snake45]

I've always been told not the drop the slide on an empty gun, and I won't do it on any gun I handle. The slide dropping with a loaded mag will absorb some of the energy stripping and chambering a round, without a round to chamber, that energy must hit the parts of the gun harder than in normal operation.

This is the correct answer. :wink:

 

[Snake45]

If the recoil spring is really that powerful, shooting the gun will really beat the crap out of it in no time flat.

Don't forget that chambering a round requires energy.
In expending that energy, the slide is slowed down appreciably.

Another iteration of the correct answer. :wink:

 

[Snake45]

I don't do it, but that's me. I feel the cushioning affect of stripping a round and running it into the chamber decelerates the slide sufficiently to "soften" the slam. The wear that occurs in this way is by design. Will it hurt if done occasionally? No.

I put letting the slide slam on empty in the same category as flipping the wrist to slam a cylinder into the frame on a swing out DA revolver. Perhaps it's not necessarily going to damage it, but guns are tools, and I like to take care of my tools to the greatest extent possible.

Yet another iteration of the CORRECT answer. :wink:

 

[Pat-inCO]

Think about one question; Just because you CAN do something (such
as jumping off the Golden Gate Bridge) does that make it a good idea?

 

[pyth0n]

This from a post in the other Ruger forum.
Iowegan wrote, "Slide or bolt slamming might get you thrown out of your LGS or your buddy might slap you 'upside the head, but it is not going to hurt a quality pistol. You mentioned MK II and MK IIIs .... do you realize ... Ruger Standards and MK I's have the same identical extractor, ectractor groove, and almost identical bolts? Because Standards and MK I's don't lock the bolt back after the last round fires, it is very common for shooter to lose count, let the bolt slam on an empty chamber, then dry fire. Funny .... these old Standards and MK Is are still around, still shoot like a champ, and suffer no decernable damage. Believe it or not, Ruger designed them to be slammed.

Out of respect for other gun owners, I don't pick up their guns and dry fire or slam bolts/slides. Fact is, this practice is like a lot of other gun myths and has no basis but at the same time, people that believe these myths are going to be pissed if they think you are abusing their guns. Sometimes discression is the better part of valor."

 

[Snake45]

This from a post in the other Ruger forum.
Iowegan wrote, "Slide or bolt slamming might get you thrown out of your LGS or your buddy might slap you 'upside the head, but it is not going to hurt a quality pistol. You mentioned MK II and MK IIIs .... do you realize ... Ruger Standards and MK I's have the same identical extractor, ectractor groove, and almost identical bolts? Because Standards and MK I's don't lock the bolt back after the last round fires, it is very common for shooter to lose count, let the bolt slam on an empty chamber, then dry fire. Funny .... these old Standards and MK Is are still around, still shoot like a champ, and suffer no decernable damage. Believe it or not, Ruger designed them to be slammed.

Out of respect for other gun owners, I don't pick up their guns and dry fire or slam bolts/slides. Fact is, this practice is like a lot of other gun myths and has no basis but at the same time, people that believe these myths are going to be pissed if they think you are abusing their guns. Sometimes discression is the better part of valor."

Ruger .22 autos are not the same thing as a 1911. Two completely different animals.

 

[pyth0n]

This from a post in the other Ruger forum.
Iowegan wrote, "Slide or bolt slamming might get you thrown out of your LGS or your buddy might slap you 'upside the head, but it is not going to hurt a quality pistol. You mentioned MK II and MK IIIs .... do you realize ... Ruger Standards and MK I's have the same identical extractor, ectractor groove, and almost identical bolts? Because Standards and MK I's don't lock the bolt back after the last round fires, it is very common for shooter to lose count, let the bolt slam on an empty chamber, then dry fire. Funny .... these old Standards and MK Is are still around, still shoot like a champ, and suffer no decernable damage. Believe it or not, Ruger designed them to be slammed.

Out of respect for other gun owners, I don't pick up their guns and dry fire or slam bolts/slides. Fact is, this practice is like a lot of other gun myths and has no basis but at the same time, people that believe these myths are going to be pissed if they think you are abusing their guns. Sometimes discression is the better part of valor."

Ruger .22 autos are not the same thing as a 1911. Two completely different animals.

This topic was about other model as well. The .22s were used as an example. I'm personally not convinced damage will be done unless the gun was a real junker to begin with. In the past, IIRC Ruger did have a peaning problem with the SR and was, I believe, attributed to improper heat treatment. Kimber had a problem with some slides & frames cracking, some what of a coincidence since I believe Ruger was making one of them. An old timer range buddy had his Kimber slide split in two, front to back. No Kaboom.
He passed away shortly after and after a period of time we asked, but no one knew anymore about the gun. But all were defects in the gun. But I agree with Iowegans last paragraph.

 

[Pat-inCO]

Ruger .22 autos are not the same thing as a 1911.
Two completely different animals.

BINGO!

 

[1911Tuner]

Short answer. Don't do it.

Remove the barrel and slip the slidestop crosspin through the link. Swing it into the in-battery position, and look at the tiny contact patch between the lower lug feet and the slidestop pin. Look at it.

That's all that absorbs the slide's momentum when the gun isn't feeding ammunition. I've seen those lug feet cracked and I've seen'em broken slap off. I've seen'em deform and let the slide sit a good 64th inch forward of the rear of the frame.

I've seen slidestop pin holes in the frame egg-shaped because of it. I've seen LW Commander frames crack adjacent to the pin hole...most often in the bottom.

Show me the damage

Well...I didn't make pictures years ago because didn't figure on havin' to prove that abusin' guns will break'em sooner or later, and the last one that I saw that broke the lug feet was about 5 years ago. It was a Springfield. I didn't make a picture of that one, either. I just replaced the barrel for the guy and sent him home a wiser man.

Yes. He admitted to sitting around playing with the gun, dropping the slide while the gun was empty. I didn't inquire if he stood in front of a mirror askin': "You talkin' to me?"

Anyway. It's your gun. Smoke'em if ya got'em.

 

[HAWKEYE#28]

THANK YOU, VERY MUCH! 8) :!:

 

[Pat-inCO]

I'VE BEEN TOLD THE SAME THING, guys, 60 years ago. I did not believe it then and do not believe it now. SHOW ME THE DAMAGE!

Let's see, you want ME to ruin a perfectly good gun . . . . just to take
some pictures to convince YOU? :roll:
Guess again.

 

[soyarm]

why would you want to?

 

[rugerguy]

I agree with 1911 tuner, and we too, having spent 3 summers at Camp Perry back in the mid 70's working on 'commercial row, and spending time , and meals with Many of the armorers from about every branch of the military, you do NOT "drop the slide" (slam fire) any target 1911 ,you can and will 'break " something", maybe chip the hammer notch or the sear tip , whatever, so I say NO, unless you can hold the hammer "back" while doing it.....the shell entering the chamber dampens the "slam"............its YOUR guns, YOU do what ever YOU want to do, they eventually come in the shop and my replacement will have to repair it for you or send it back to manufacturer, and you can complain here, about how shoddy something is..... :roll: 8) :wink:

 

[revhigh]

I agree with 1911 tuner, and we too, having spent 3 summers at Camp Perry back in the mid 70's working on 'commercial row, and spending time , and meals with Many of the armorers from about every branch of the military, you do NOT "drop the slide" (slam fire) any target 1911 ,you can and will 'break " something", maybe chip the hammer notch or the sear tip , whatever, so I say NO, unless you can hold the hammer back :roll: 8) :wink:

I dont see why you'd have to 'hold the hammer back' ... since it would already BE HELD BACK if you dropped the slide by using the slide release ....

REV

 

[1911Tuner]

I dont see why you'd have to 'hold the hammer back' ... since it would already BE HELD BACK if you dropped the slide by using the slide release ....

I think he's referring to hammer follow to half cock from the trigger bumping the disconnect as the slide slams to battery. That can also be prevented by simply pulling the trigger and holding it when the slide is released. Not a good habit to get into unless all your shooting is deliberate, slow-fire. In fast action, there's too much opportunity to get it out of sequence.

But sear damage from inertial trigger bump isn't the main concern. It's the lower lug feet that catch hell when there's no cartridge to bleed off the slide's momentum.

 

[rugerguy]

by "holding the hammer back" refers to taking any and all the contact of the hammer 'notch' off the sear tip, when dropping (slam FIRE) the slide on an 'empty' gun, this being 'target' ( bullseye) guns, not combat,ball ammo guns. The sharp edge and limited contact in the hammer/sear area can "chip" ,break off...must remember ,back then these guns still had to pick up a 3 1/2 pound weight to be considered "safe" to fire...also then some time later, the advent of the shock buffs ( washer idea from Wilson)) also buffered the "metal to metal " slamming going on..I recall some old timers put in a rounded, thin piece of leather on the recoil spring guide...hey it worked,,,but all of that stuff is for 'target' guns, not "defense or duty guns, no need for small parts and pieces breaking off and jamming up the works in any 'dire' situation........
and again as tuner noted, it is the influence of a shell being fed that "bleeds off the slides momentum..."
thus dampens the effect/affect.

 

[DGW1949]

I'm with Rev on what he is thinking.
If I was to release the slide of an empty 1911from it's "locked back" position so's that it would "slam forward" into battery, I dern-sure wouldn't be pressing the trigger at the same time. And do notice the "If" used at the start of my previous sentance....you can read that as meaning that it is not something that I'd do in the first place.

But hey guys.....your gun aint my gun. Feel free to abuse yours in any manner you want.

DGW

 

[1911Tuner]

If I was to release the slide of an empty 1911from it's "locked back" position so's that it would "slam forward" into battery, I dern-sure wouldn't be pressing the trigger at the same time.

Why? Mechanically, that's exactly what happens when you fire the gun. It just happens faster. The only functional difference is that the disconnect is in the connected position...but when the slide runs over it...it still cams it down into the disconnected position, and you still have to release the trigger after it's in battery to allow it to reset to the connected position before you can fire it.

 

[rugerguy]

whoa, scary thoughts there, I'd keep my fingers off ANY trigger at that point...its one thing to "hold back" ( keep pressure off) of the hammer at this time, its awkward in fact, till you get to know and see why......
and again, this is basically on lightened trigger pull , target guns...you guys do what YOU want with your guns. :roll:

 

[1911Tuner]

whoa, scary thoughts there, I'd keep my fingers off ANY trigger at that point

It's only scary if you don't understand how the trigger/fire control group functions, and it only becomes dangerous if you get in a hurry...like executing a speed reload in an action-type match and you get it out of sequence...and Insert magazine/Pull trigger/Release slide becomes Insert magazine/Release slide/Pull trigger...before the gun is pointed downrange and under full control.

Again...when the gun is operating normally...the trigger is held to the rear when the slide goes to battery, no? Then, why would it be any more risky when releasing the slide to chamber a round? As long as we keep the gun pointed in the right direction, the risks are minimal. But, we always keep the gun pointed in the right direction because a malfunction is always possible. It's like a salty old Master Gunny once told us on the firing line: "Expect your weapon to malfunction."

But, it's a moot point, anyway.

Historically, the practice of holding the trigger to the rear while releasing the slide is/was only done during slow-fire Bullseye competition, and almost nobody does it any more because of the availability of lightweight/low mass triggers. When all the armorers had to work with was heavy steel triggers, inertial disconnect bump was a genuine concern, and NOT holding the trigger could and often did result in ruined trigger jobs.

 

[rugerguy]

YES, that salty old Gunny was exactly right.."expect your weapon to malfunction...." OK oK, no need to get technical, we have seen the results of and got to attend court court ( not us, but other gunsmiths) over just such incidents, as well as having seen them discharge, simply taking the safety off, after trying to "pull the trigger" when the safety is engaged........ :shock:
......so class, AGAIN, you do what YOU want to do, but please keep your fingers OFF any trigger till your are certain of your target..........the end :wink: