Bullet find today

[deac45]

I picked these up today at my favorite little gun shop. They said a lady brought them in just wanting to get rid of them. Husband had passed, was an avid shooter/reloader. Kids and grandkids had divided up most of his stuff, but she still had a few odds and ends. Being unlubed, I'm guessing they haven't been sized. They're a little frosty but not bad. Sampling a handful, they measure out at .4525 to .453, 0.64 nose to base and weigh out at 261gr +/- .10gr. I have no idea what mold they came from, alloy, hardness, etc. But, I figured at $20 for 400 if they don't work out they can be melted down and recast.

 

[Cal30 1906]

Looks like from a Lee mold. 250 grain flat nose like I cast but could be wrong.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Agree. I had that mold for the short time I was loading .45 Colt. Mine dropped at nearly 260 grains too. If they were mine I would powder coat them then run them through the appropriate sizer.

Odd that an FFL would consign those as I thought it was illegal to sell non-commercially made bullets. Wouldn't scare me to shoot them though.

 

[Cal30 1906]

Yes I shoot that bullet in my +p 45 colt and 45 ar loads, mine drop right at 260 grains and shoot well with everything I have shot them out of.

 

[contender]

SCORE!!!!!!!!

It's not illegal for an FFL to sell loose bullets like that. Just because they are not from a "commercial" maker,, doesn't make them illegal.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

So how is it that if I make bullets and sell them the ATF would most likely be raiding my home early in the morning? I know the maker was not making them for sale so he gets a pass, but the wife and/or FFL are selling non-licensed contraband so it would seem. Just asking for a friend [i.e. - named myself] as I would not mind using the FFL seller work around to sell silver bullets.

 

[Cal30 1906]

So how is it that if I make bullets and sell them the ATF would most likely be raiding my home early in the morning? I know the maker was not making them for sale so he gets a pass, but the wife and/or FFL are selling non-licensed contraband so it would seem. Just asking for a friend [i.e. - named myself] as I would not mind using the FFL seller work around to sell silver bullets.

That's news to me... I know you have to be licensed to sell live ammunition but I didn't know it included projectiles alone.
There really is no difference between a cast bullet and a cast lead sinker which is not regulated.

 

[contender]

"I know you have to be licensed to sell live ammunition"

Correct.

But just the lead bullets,,, NO LICENSE REQUIRED!

Delve into the ATF rules & regulations & find a copy of the law that says you have to have a license to sell just bullets. If you do find one,, I'll be surprised & humbly apologize!

Now,, MAYBE a few specific STATE regulations MIGHT have such a law. But not Federal.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

"I know you have to be licensed to sell live ammunition"

Correct.

But just the lead bullets,,, NO LICENSE REQUIRED!

Delve into the ATF rules & regulations & find a copy of the law that says you have to have a license to sell just bullets. If you do find one,, I'll be surprised & humbly apologize!

Now,, MAYBE a few specific STATE regulations MIGHT have such a law. But not Federal.

I have read the Federal rules and regulations, as well as every website explaining them, and they basically say that one can sell components without a manufacture's license that a licensed manufacture made, but can not make any part of a cartridge unlicensed and sell them. Same goes for cases, primers, and powders. One also is not allowed to assemble the part made by a licensed manufacture to sell as a complete cartridge with out a manufacture's license themselves. So I'm pretty sure that there is no work around where one guy makes components unlicensed and has his buddy sell them without the ire of the ATF. The only exception I know of is between members of a Private member association.

 

[peachhead]

So how is it that if I make bullets and sell them the ATF would most likely be raiding my home early in the morning?

"I know you have to be licensed to sell live ammunition"

Correct.

But just the lead bullets,,, NO LICENSE REQUIRED!

Delve into the ATF rules & regulations & find a copy of the law that says you have to have a license to sell just bullets. If you do find one,, I'll be surprised & humbly apologize!

Now,, MAYBE a few specific STATE regulations MIGHT have such a law. But not Federal.

Not what was explained to me by my ATF agent.
Part of my original business plan was to sell cast bullets. It was explained to me that that required a type 06 manufacturer class license and I would be subject to ITAR regulations, not the least of which would cost me about $2,500 bucks yearly.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

That's news to me... I know you have to be licensed to sell live ammunition but I didn't know it included projectiles alone.
There really is no difference between a cast bullet and a cast lead sinker which is not regulated.

Actually one does not have to have a license to sell ammunition that a licensed manufacturer assemble. So I or anyone else could go down to the store, or order on line, and buy as much ammunition as we could afford and turn right around and sell it all at a profit. But make any component of a cartridge without that manufacture's license and sell it will get you in hot water with the ATF (if not dead upon their arrival). [h4]

peachhead​

[/h4]
is correct as to the cost of the manufacture' license, yet that does not include the mandatory non-resident building, security measures (fence, burglar bars, electronic security system, etc...), fire extinguishers and fire sprinkler system, plus insurance, etc... They make sure that it will not be profitable for the hobbyist to engage in. And while that licensing fee is only for the first year from my understanding subsequent years would cost less.

 

[GasGuzzler]

It is not legal to sell cast bullets made by someone without a manufacturing license.
It's also not legal to sell cases, primers, or powder made by someone without a manufacturing license.
It is also illegal to sell ammunition assembled by someone without a manufacturing license.

This is why the CB forum does not allow selling ammo built by a non-manufacturer or bullets either for that matter.

Some places let sellers get by when the bullets are offered for sale as scrap lead to melt or hand-loaded ammo as components ready to break down but usually those topics are locked/deleted.

Nearly every result in a Google search agrees with these statements, including the ATF page that says no license is needed to sell commercially manufactured ammunition but the parts and the assemblies must all be commercially made.

 

[Paul B]

"Not what was explained to me by my ATF agent."

Juat a word of advice. If an AF agent says you can do something or you cannot do something, have him/her give you the info in writing. What agent #1 says/writes can and will be countermanded by agent #2 just because they differ in opinion. At least if you have something in writing it might lessen whatever hassle you might encounter.
Paul B.

 

[contender]

If all this is true,, then I apologize for getting it wrong.

However,,, I'll be at SHOT in a few weeks, and I'll visit with the ATF while there & see if I can written confirmation of all this.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

If all this is true,, then I apologize for getting it wrong.

However,,, I'll be at SHOT in a few weeks, and I'll visit with the ATF while there & see if I can written confirmation of all this.

It is all written down some where in the ATFs regulation already. But here is a brief overview on a lawyer's website:
https://johnpierceesq.com/do-i-need...g-to-do-is-manufacture-and-sell-cast-bullets/
All in all the original poster has admitted to the shop illegally selling illegal firearms contraband. Which could even get the lady in question in trouble. I in all good conscience recommend deleting this testimony of a Federal crime that this thread attest to. Wouldn't want the local shop owner getting ten years for being helpful in passing along some usefully chunks of lead now would we? Much less the Lady in question!

After all the author of the thread has gotten his question answered and there is no really further need for this thread to exist.

 

[NikA]

It is not legal to sell cast bullets made by someone without a manufacturing license.
It's also not legal to sell cases, primers, or powder made by someone without a manufacturing license.
It is also illegal to sell ammunition assembled by someone without a manufacturing license.

I have not heard this interpretation of the law. 18 USC 923 says you need a license if you are in the business of manufacturing complete ammunition and components thereof. Does not specify anything about resale. I believe at one time there was an ATF letter floating around that said that fired cases were not considered components (basically scrap) but prepped cases (sized, trimmed, etc.) WERE components because they were "ready-to-load" like new brass.

Wouldn't surprise me to learn it had changed with the "in the business" expansion that happened under the soon-to-be-previous administration.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

I have not heard this interpretation of the law. 18 USC 923 says you need a license if you are in the business of manufacturing complete ammunition and components thereof. Does not specify anything about resale. I believe at one time there was an ATF letter floating around that said that fired cases were not considered components (basically scrap) but prepped cases (sized, trimmed, etc.) WERE components because they were "ready-to-load" like new brass.

Wouldn't surprise me to learn it had changed with the "in the business" expansion that happened under the soon-to-be-previous administration.

Components thereof is the key phrase in this instance. The original manufacture was not licensed to manufacture them for sale in the first place which means that the bullets he made are illegal to sell the first time around, and all subsequent time thereafter. Which either the widow did if she sold them, and for sure the local shop did as testified by the original poster. Such an offence carries a ten year sentence. Not good to go around testifying of such openly on the web where ATF agents troll looking for someone whom they may devourer.

As far as prepping fired brass, that was made with a manufactures license to start with, for resale I would not put it past the ATF to define that as a phase of assembling the ammunition of which one would be in need of a license to do so. But have no clue just what the letter of the law say about it. Personally the less one says about what they and others are doing or have done the better off every one will be. As when the ATF shows up at one's home could easily get them murdered.

 

[NikA]

@TheTexasRAT, your focus is on the wrong portion of the statute. ATF has long held that personal manufacture is not a problem (for both firearms and ammunition/components), but if an individual is "in the business," i.e., intends to profit from the activity, then they must be licensed. Incidental sale, e.g., I cast bullets for my use then stop loading a design, caliber, etc. and sell is not "in the business."

ETA: at least this was true before recent expansion of government overreach.

The item is not inherently contraband, therefore not illegal to re-sell. The government would have a tough time showing that the original sale violated the statute, even if they did try to bully resellers into not conducting this type of business.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

@TheTexasRAT, your focus is on the wrong portion of the statute. ATF has long held that personal manufacture is not a problem (for both firearms and ammunition/components), but if an individual is "in the business," i.e., intends to profit from the activity, then they must be licensed. Incidental sale, e.g., I cast bullets for my use then stop loading a design, caliber, etc. and sell is not "in the business."

ETA: at least this was true before recent expansion of government overreach.

The item is not inherently contraband, therefore not illegal to re-sell. The government would have a tough time showing that the original sale violated the statute, even if they did try to bully resellers into not conducting this type of business.

From what I read, selling just one bullet that was not manufactured with a Federal license to make ammunition and/or any components thereof is a felonious federal offense that carries a penalty of 10 years. And even if I am wrong I would not go around letting the cat out of the bag any where near a federal agent's ear for fear they might just be out to make an example of us. Us being those who believe in freedom.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Yes, similar to moonshine. Make it all you want, sell it without paying for the license and you're in trouble. The not-for-profit argument is thin because the lady selling to the store was for profit 100% and illegal. But then the store owner didn't give them away so he's in the same boat she is. Both were for profit.

 

[Sam Summey]

SCORE!!!!!!!!

It's not illegal for an FFL to sell loose bullets like that. Just because they are not from a "commercial" maker,, doesn't make them illegal.

Selling remanufactured ammo is not illegal but the liability is HUGE. During the Obama/Biden ammo shortages alot of remanufactured ammo was sold. Some of the amateurs got an FFL and became a licensed business in order to get a price break on supplies. Whether they are "bonded" is whole different matter. More than one firearm has been destroyed by 'gun show" ammo.

 

[jmca]

All the old guys sitting at the Gun Shows selling Lead Cast Bullets are going to get locked up? They may as well roll over and die if they can't do this to stay active.

 

[NikA]

Yes, similar to moonshine. Make it all you want, sell it without paying for the license and you're in trouble. The not-for-profit argument is thin because the lady selling to the store was for profit 100% and illegal. But then the store owner didn't give them away so he's in the same boat she is. Both were for profit.

This analogy is 100% incorrect. Home distillation of spirits for personal consumption, while rarely prosecuted, is completely illegal. Home distillation licenses for fuel usage are obtainable, licenses to produce for consumption require some inane tracking and storage requirements (thinking bonded warehouse or some such).

The store owner didn't MANUFACTURE the cast bullets in the course of business, so he's in the clear. A one-time sale of personal assets is not a regular business activity either.

Y'all are welcome to believe what you want. ATF used to have guidance on their website (think it may have gone away with the rule rewriting the past couple years) about selling personally made firearms, that made it relatively clear that an occasional sale of an item that was not specifically manufactured with the intent to sell was not a licensed activity.

 

[GasGuzzler]

No.

It is not illegal to make your own whiskey, beer, or wine. It is illegal to do so and sell it without a license. A license is nothing more than a tax which is what the gubmint wants and needs. They care zero about safety.

When did fuel become and issue? Because the General Lee ran on moonshine on the Dukes of Hazzard TV show?

It matters not the store owner did not manufacture the bullets himself. What matters is he sold ammunition components that were made by a non-licensed person. If your poor attempt at logic is true, one could cast their own bullets, "sell" them to a friend, then the friend could legally sell them and pay the maker back with no issue. Not the case at all.

And the ATF does in fact have language on their website to corroborate what has been posted already herein. I'm with the other guy. Topic needs to go bye-bye.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

No.

It is not illegal to make your own whiskey, beer, or wine. It is illegal to do so and sell it without a license. A license is nothing more than a tax which is what the gubmint wants and needs. They care zero about safety.

(the following is for educational purposes only and is not intended to help advise anyone of how to commit a crime)
It is a federal crime to make whisky, but not beer or wine so long as the person does not possess over a certain amount of home made beer or wine at any one point in time.

As for being legal in states, most it is a felony to make whiskey. Missouri it is completely state legal to make and possess 100 gallons per adult up to 2 adults per household, making it legal for a husband and wife to possess up to 200 gallons at any given point and time. But being it is still a federal crime if I were to have any I sure would not brag about it on the internet. There are a few other states that are kind of iffy and still best to keep any such activity under the radar as well. It is however in the state of Missouri a crime to transport sad stash from the place it was made to another property, so don't get caught taking to a friends house for any reason either.

And unless one is openly making and or even selling it under the radar they most likely will never get into any trouble. Key takeaway here is to stay under the radar!

 

[GasGuzzler]

I have never seen any moonshine ever in Cooke County Texas. It must not exist.

 

[NikA]

It matters not the store owner did not manufacture the bullets himself. What matters is he sold ammunition components that were made by a non-licensed person.

I posted the relevant statute. Supply a source that supports your argument if you have such.

Don't bother accusing me of coming up with the logic in the statute. I didn't have anything to do with crafting it. Were it up to me, there wouldn't be restrictions on manufacturing projectiles.

 

[GasGuzzler]

No statute quoted, only referenced. The reference you typed says that it's illegal to make ammo or components thereof without a license. So you're saying it's not illegal to sell the things you aren't allowed to produce. Okay.

 

[TheTexasRAT]

I have never seen any moonshine ever in Cooke County Texas. It must not exist.

And I swear I have never sat by a still while putting my teacup under the spout and sipping any moonshine either. No not once. That's my story and I'm sticking to it!

 

[TheTexasRAT]

I posted the relevant statute. Supply a source that supports your argument if you have such.

Don't bother accusing me of coming up with the logic in the statute. I didn't have anything to do with crafting it. Were it up to me, there wouldn't be restrictions on manufacturing projectiles.

I posted a link above where a lawyer explains it well. They give the statutes too. But I'm definitely with you on if it were up to me all kinds of stuff would become legal.