Bad Times 357 load

[silverback]

I have been giving my question more consideration. Lets just say that for conversation sake the 158 and 125 sjhp at their perspective factory loads are good to go.

What I am after is a round for a SHTF scenario. One that an individual can cast and load himself. One that will function in a revolver and lever gun. One that can pull dual duty SD and hunting small to medium game. a load that will minimize leading.

In this situation I am not necessarily concerned about over penetration as I am more concerned about terminal effectiveness.


1. initial consideration would be bullet design to work with the lever gun.
2. bullet weight and hardness
3. primer sp or magnum
4. powder and charge.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=189369

 

[anachronism]

Lyman 358156 is the first that comes to mind, if you want a production mold. It is a gascheck bullet, so you could load it up to the maximum for either gun without leading worries. My experience has been that my 357s lead the bores easier than the larget calibers do. With some careful searching, you could come up with a hollowpoint version of this bullet as well. LBT also offers an LFN 180gr that can be ordered with the correct nose length for the rifle, as can many custom molds. Personally, I'd probably try to stay around 160 gr for optimum velocity from the revolver. If it was just intended for the revolver only, I'd also consider a custom 140 gr mold to get the velocities higher.

 

[greenmtnguy]

+1 vote for the old standby 358156 bullet with gascheck. You can even load it in 38 Special cases if that's the only brass you've got at hand (at appropriate powder charges, of course). IF I had to pick a survival gun, it would probably be a blackhawk with 357/9mm cylinders, or possible a blackhawk with 45Colt/45ACP - though the 45 will use more powder per round and require more lead per bullet..

 

[GP100man]

358156, 357446, 358429, Lees round nosed flat point in 158gr. , NOE`s 360-180, NOE`s 358429.

All these are good boolit designs & are proven performers !

I run all of the above up to 1200 fps with no GCs or leading , my 358156 has had the GC cut out so it`s a plain base, BUT all my cyls throats are to or over bore dia.

Boolit fit is the secret to lead free shooting .

My alloys for handgun rarely go over 12 bhn.

 

[DGW1949]

I have been giving my question more consideration. Lets just say that for conversation sake the 158 and 125 sjhp at their perspective factory loads are good to go.

What I am after is a round for a SHTF scenario. One that an individual can cast and load himself. One that will function in a revolver and lever gun. One that can pull dual duty SD and hunting small to medium game. a load that will minimize leading.

In this situation I am not necessarily concerned about over penetration as I am more concerned about terminal effectiveness.


1. initial consideration would be bullet design to work with the lever gun.
2. bullet weight and hardness
3. primer sp or magnum
4. powder and charge.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=189369

My opinion on the 4 things you listed:

(1). Me thinks that you are on the right track there.
Test of various bullets in my own Rossi-'92 showed that it ran like a Swiss watch using any bullet shape that I cared to use, so long as the AOL didn't get crazy...RN, RNFP, SWC, HP's....it didn't matter, nor did it matter whether they was put-up in .38Spl cases or .357 cases. In fact, it would feed .38's and .357's interchangably. The only thing it wouldn't feed were bullets that got into the 180-200 grn range, because the AOL of the resulting (357) cartridge was simply too long.

(2). The actual weight of your bullet is probably going to be (+) or (-) what you think it was going to be. That is because of variations brought-on by sizing and choice of alloy. Still though, bear in mind that the .357 gained it's reputation as a "stopper" early-on. And early-on, a 158 bullet was perty-much standard for the caliber...so that's the weight-range that I tend to stay in.
"Hardness" will depend on what pressure range you're shooting for. Me personaly, I've not needed anything harder than about 13 BHN.....but...my bullets fit my gun, I don't push for maximum velocity, and I use Alox lube.

(3). I use whatever type ( but not nessessarily the same brand) of primer that is listed as being used in whatever load it is that I'm using from whatever manual. I'm partial to Federals or Winchesters, but that's just me. I guess we all have our favorites.

(4). I'm old school, so for me, it's mostly Unique....or 2400....depending on how fast I want to go.
If you want to go that route, it's easy to find loads for those two in virtualy every manual that's ever been printed.
FWIW, I'm told that there's better powders available these days but I guess that I haven't felt the need.

Hope this helps somewhat.

DGW

 

[RUFFBIRD]

RNFP cast for rifle & handgun
158 gr bullet, 10-15 hardness
Any fast to medium burn rate pistol powder, I like Red Dot & Universal
Standard Winchester, Remington or CCI primers

These work great in good times, & should work the same if/when the SHTF :lol:

 

[Thumbcocker]

Lee 158rnfp in 6 cavity makes a pile of boolits in a hurry and shoot well in rifles or revolvers.

 

[Cherokee]

I really like the Lee 158 rnfp (6 cavity) in my 38/357 revolvers. Accurate and the fn makes a good impression on the target. Don't own a rifle of that flavor.

 

[silverback]

looks like I may go with the 158 rnfp. now I just need to slug barrel and cylinders or is that necessary?

 

[mr surveyor]

wow, I'm surprised at the lack of love for SWC's

 

[DGW1949]

wow, I'm surprised at the lack of love for SWC's

No lack of love on my part.
Fact is, that's about all I use when it comes to revolver cartridges....and yup, they feed just fine in my levergun.

DGW

 

[pps]

I like the 358156 so much that I'm getting a 4 cavity Mihec mold with the penta-pins in both plain base and gas check.

14.0 grains of 2400 and small pistol primer gets me around 1300fps from my revolver (5" barrel) I cast them out of straight ww with enough tin added for fillout. I heat treat them if I plan on pushing them...though I have pushed some soft alloy pretty hard with minimal problems with leadding.

Seated out on the lower crimp groove in 38 special cases with 12.5 grains of 2400, I get 1250fps. I don't have any 38 special only revolvers, so I don't worry about stuffing these into a 38.

 

[GP100man]

Ray Thompson was a smart man , a "fixer" of problems (actually a timber cruiser to earn money) but the real problem was 357 MAG brass was kinda hard to come by & even ammo was not readily avaiable.

So hence the necity of designs to have a decently weighted boolit & enuff powder to push it to luke warm magnum velocitys put 2 crimp grooves on the swc design & it`s still a good design to this day & will probably never go away!

The old designs work , but as I`ve tried most of the popular 1s I`ve found some have limitations as to the pressures they like & ya get out of the "sweet spot" & accuracy goes to pot qwik !

WHY ???? !!!

Because most mold makers have tweaked the molds to fit most if not all chambers/throats ,or to be easier to cast (square 90 degree corners will grab & hold onto a mold like crazy) even to accomadate speed sizing/loading .

The design that has the widest band by far is the NOE 358429 it has full dia. front band & is quite thick, the nose is a bit shorter than Mr. Keiths original designs , but I feel that front driving band is a very large contributor to it`s wide performance band (from plinking to full mag loadings .

Now the RNFPs.

Look at it`s basic design:



There`s no shoulder/front band ! No shoulder to get beat up on the forcing cone !

A true bore rider oglive, & still retaining a nice flat meplat, what`s not to like ???
They are fairly easy to work with & with decent speeds become a devestatingly hard hittin boolit on game , minimal meat damage & excellent penetration (sound familiar ?)

Now , the 1 in the pic is a NOE 360-180 & in it`s hollow pont form (in my opinion the HP cavity is too large & allows the front of the boolit to peel/break off) is a great lookin/intimadating lookin projectile..

It has it`s uses ,but not for the kinda critters ya gonna eat!

Best suited to SD/HD sitiations, as the meplat will open qwikly & shed alot of kenetic energy in the first 12in. of penetration.

 

[anachronism]

There is a drawback to these designs though. If you are in a situation where you need to use a speedloader, the full diameter front bands, or the full diameter nose area can hang up in the revolvers throat area. I had some 185 LBTs cost me a bowling pin match because the throats fouled a bit after the first six shots. When I speedloaded, the bullets wouldn't fit in the throats, and I blew the reload. I had to pop the cartridges out of the speedloader and load them singly to reload. I'm just glad it only cost me a club match. Things could have gone worse if it were a different scenario. That soured my on driving bands that fit tightly in the throats. At least for shooting that's time sensitive.

 

[pps]

There is a drawback to these designs though. If you are in a situation where you need to use a speedloader, the full diameter front bands, or the full diameter nose area can hang up in the revolvers throat area. I had some 185 LBTs cost me a bowling pin match because the throats fouled a bit after the first six shots. When I speedloaded, the bullets wouldn't fit in the throats, and I blew the reload. I had to pop the cartridges out of the speedloader and load them singly to reload. I'm just glad it only cost me a club match. Things could have gone worse if it were a different scenario. That soured my on driving bands that fit tightly in the throats. At least for shooting that's time sensitive.

The bullets I use for concealed carry are the Federal 140 grain Barnes Bullets. You don't even have to be perfectly lined up for the speed loader or moonclip to have the bullets just slide in. The profile is like a round nose. These would be a bit too expensive for a bowling pin match...and for that type of match I want the heaviest boolit I could get, just for the momentum needed to knock the pin off.

 

[anachronism]

I used the pin match as an example. The OP was asking about choosing a cast bullet for "bad times". I was pointing out a drawback to some cast bullet designs if speedloaders are to be used. Jacketed bullets are shorter than an equal weight jacketed bullet, and rarely ever seat into the throats like many cast bullet designs do.

 

[Jim Puke]

I used the pin match as an example. The OP was asking about choosing a cast bullet for "bad times". I was pointing out a drawback to some cast bullet designs if speedloaders are to be used. Jacketed bullets are shorter than an equal weight jacketed bullet, and rarely ever seat into the throats like many cast bullet designs do.

???

 

[GP100man]

Anarchronism is refering to the oglive designs , todays profiles are more lending to fouled throats ,& change weights by adjusting body length, a good example is the xtp line , same oglive profile ,just different lengths.

Shooting lead to be economical casters leave out (as much as possible)key hardening alloys & this will mean max performance from lead will not be reached in upper pressure loads.

To reach top performance in upper pressure loads alloys must be used to make the boolit "grab" the rifling without skidding & ripping a channel open for gas to blow by & "gas cut" the boolit.

Casters have found that boolit fit is KING , softer alloys can be used at higher pressures if they have an interference fit . Imagine sliding a boolit down a long funnel (throat, forcing cone, then bore) if it fits tite it`ll keep the pressure behind it .

If we add enuff alloys to keep the throats, forcing cones & bore squeaky clean the boolits would approch the cost of jacketed.

But back on subject : for the purpose of reliable feeding the front bands have shrunk , accuracy & & useability suffering, but like I said their bands that they will work is sometimes narrow.

 

[Jim Puke]

Anarchronism is refering to the oglive designs , todays profiles are more lending to fouled throats ,& change weights by adjusting body length, a good example is the xtp line , same oglive profile ,just different lengths.

Shooting lead to be economical casters leave out (as much as possible)key hardening alloys & this will mean max performance from lead will not be reached in upper pressure loads.

To reach top performance in upper pressure loads alloys must be used to make the boolit "grab" the rifling without skidding & ripping a channel open for gas to blow by & "gas cut" the boolit.

Casters have found that boolit fit is KING , softer alloys can be used at higher pressures if they have an interference fit . Imagine sliding a boolit down a long funnel (throat, forcing cone, then bore) if it fits tite it`ll keep the pressure behind it .

If we add enuff alloys to keep the throats, forcing cones & bore squeaky clean the boolits would approch the cost of jacketed.

But back on subject : for the purpose of reliable feeding the front bands have shrunk , accuracy & & useability suffering, but like I said their bands that they will work is sometimes narrow.

"Jacketed bullets are shorter than an equal weight jacketed bullet"

Let me ask the question that I think you perhaps missed.

What jacketed bullet is shorter than an equal weight jacketed bullet?

 

[anachronism]

The lube & crimping grooves displace a bit of alloy, and that generally makes Cast bullets a little longer than comparable weight jacketed. The bullet profile itself is a variable here of course, and this is more pronounced in revolver bullets than in autoloaders.

 

[silverback]

some great info! I want to thank everyone. Hey is it really that important to slug the barrel and cylinder throats?


I found some Rainer plated bullets I would be willing to trade for some hard cast plain base bullets of varying weights say 158-170 swc or rnfp.

this way when my hand loader gets in I can try the various weights and loads to see if they fit and function so I can go from there.

I have about 298 /158 grain FP and 100/ 158 grain RN Rainer plated to trade. I figure 50 for 50 trade.

 

[Paul B]

wow, I'm surprised at the lack of love for SWC's

Not so much as a lack of love but whether they will feed in a lever action. In the .357 Mag. my favorited bullet bar none is theLyman #358156. Dunno how it would feed in a lever gun.
My favorite bullet for the .44 magnum is the Lyman #429241, the Elsmer Keith bullet. It flat out works but when I had my 1894 Marlin, it was the jammingest dude I ever saw. I could just use the rifle as a single shot or leave it home. It stayed home so long that I sold it off at a gun show. I had a Winchester 1894 in .45 Colt and it too would jam up with SWC bullets. it too has gone down the road. I have sine gotten hold of an LBT bullet that looks a like a round nose bullet with a flat meplat that might work in a lever gun but don't have a lever gun anymore. It doesn't shoot all that well in my Super Blackhawk so it too might end up going down the road. I'll play with it some more before I decide what to do.
Paul B.

 

[mr surveyor]

wow, I'm surprised at the lack of love for SWC's

Not so much as a lack of love but whether they will feed in a lever action. In the .357 Mag. my favorited bullet bar none is theLyman #358156. Dunno how it would feed in a lever gun.
My favorite bullet for the .44 magnum is the Lyman #429241, the Elsmer Keith bullet. It flat out works but when I had my 1894 Marlin, it was the jammingest dude I ever saw. I could just use the rifle as a single shot or leave it home. It stayed home so long that I sold it off at a gun show. I had a Winchester 1894 in .45 Colt and it too would jam up with SWC bullets. it too has gone down the road. I have sine gotten hold of an LBT bullet that looks a like a round nose bullet with a flat meplat that might work in a lever gun but don't have a lever gun anymore. It doesn't shoot all that well in my Super Blackhawk so it too might end up going down the road. I'll play with it some more before I decide what to do.
Paul B.

I've only been reloading .44 mag since last February, and used nothing but lswc's .... particularly the powder coated Bayou Bullets since last Fall/Winter. Several months ago I bought a Rossi M92 in .44 mag and it seems to cycle the 240 gr. Bayou Bullet lswc's "o.k.". It does take a determined sweep of the lever, but not noticeably different than with fmj's. I've been too much concentrated on working up loads for the .30-30 recently that the .44 mag lever has taken a back seat. I do know that the lswc Bayou Bullets I load for revolvers in .38, .357 and .44 mag can be pushed at least to the same level as you would push "plated bullets" with absolutely no problems. I still have several hundred various lswc's from Rim Rock that have never caused any issue in my revolvers, but I don't try to max them out either. Dead is dead ..... a couple hundred feet difference in velocity ain't gonna make a whole lot of difference if it works.

 

[Rclark]

All I use is 240g SWC bullets too in .44 Mag/Spec. No lever gun .44s here though. Most of my revolvers have never seen jacketed stuff. Same with .357 and .45 Colt....

 

[Bryan]

Lee's 158 gr RNFP cast from straight ww , small pistol primers and unique. This is what 99% of my 357 shooting is done with.

 

[silverback]

I am going to try various round weights to gain some personal experience. In the mean time, can someone provide me with the advantage of using the 180 grain over the 158? I am thinking the extra weight would provide more penetration and possibly more initial tissue cavitation but wouldn't it be made up with the 158 via xtra velocity imparting more energy with the hp design.

 

[silverback]

so what I am gathering from my researching and asking questions are as follows;
1. 125 grain is best for SD situations less than adequate for hunting
2. 158 good for self defense and adequate for hunting within limits of shot presentation and yardage.
3. 180 Ok for self defense but a better hunting round.
4. 158 and 180 grain should provide same perceived recoil if shot at 1300 fps from a 4 inch security six.

If I were to have one good do all round it should be the 158 grain FN, SWC or HP cast either PB or GC

 

[Rodfac]

Lyman's 358156 GC gets my vote, assuming it will feed through a lever gun. I've had good results with 429215 GC, a .44 bullet of a similar design, through all of my .44's and two Marlin carbines. Accuracy with that bullet results in a ragged hole at 50 yds with peep sights.

But back to the 358156 GC. That's probably the most versatile of all the .38 bulllets I've tried. With double crimping grooves you can use it with .38 Spl or .357 Magnum brass and still get deer killing velocity out of it. As a LSWC design, it should also be a good SD load.

If you cast your own, wheel weight alloy with suitable lube, can be pushed that hard with superb accuracy. The gas check makes 1200 fps a non-leading proposition, even with straight wheel weights. But even without the check, I've had excellent success up to 1000 fps.

As to cost, wheel weight alloy bullets lead the way. IF you discount the cost of casting equipment, I do it for less than 1/3 cent a piece, the GC adds another 4 cents at current prices, but adding 4 cents for the primer and 2 cents for the powder, you're still way ahead, and mostly self-sufficient if components dry up and you've layed in a supply.

I've used it in three Smiths, and four Rugers with complete satisfaction. Were I to be limited to one bullet in that caliber, I'd opt for it.

Assuming it will feed through your carbine, I don't think you can do better.

Best Regards, Rod

 

[anachronism]

If you're looking at jacketed bullets, the 140 gr .357 bullet offers it all, as long as you get a good quality bullet. I wouldn't feel inadequate with a hot loaded 140 gr XTP or Gold Dot for anything. Some of the simpler "cup & core" designs might be a little too frangible for my tastes though. However, the 158 gr is the weight the 357 was originally designed around, and by far the most common. It is never a bad choice in a good quality bullet.

 

[David LaPell]

I have two loads that would work well and are good for the proverbial excrement hitting the rotating air circulating blades.

One would be my #358156 bullet in my case HP because that's what my mould is behind 12.5 grains of 2400 in a .38 Special case. I have loaded hundreds upon hundreds of these and they work well in any gun.

The other is a #358429 170 grain cast bullet in that same .38 Special case also with 12.5 grains of 2400. I also have loaded hundreds and hundreds of these, I found that I can put both together very easily with my Lyman 310, making it very portable. I know with water dropped wheel weights I have seen little to no leading with the #358429's even at 1,200 fps or better in my Blackhawk.