.45 LONG COLT MY PERFECT CHOICE, WHICH DO YOU PREFER?

[Dobetown]

Before getting locked in on handloads for self defence look at some of Massad Ayoob writtings from 20 years or so back. He has been used as an expert witness or investigator in a number of police and civilian shootings. There is a lot more to this than caliber or bullet.

 

[writwing]

When my life is on the line and I may have to defend my choices later in court, I want a .357 (or a .45 ACP) loaded with good factory ammo.


I think this is another wifes tale, I have never heard of a single case of someone having problems from using reloads to defend themselves. I hear the words echoed in many forums and articals, and in many of the defensive handgun courses I have taken thru the years, but have yet to actually see evidence of this "problem". Sheriff Jim Wilson wrote an artical a few years ago in Shooting Times saying that this was a wifes tale as well and said he had never heard of it being a problem and challanged any of the readers to please come forth with documented cases, and he would do an article covering these cases, but he never got any input. Does anyone here have any hard evidence of this "reloads for self defense problem" ?

Anything can and will be used against you in court. Reloads just gives the prosecutor one more thing to use.

 

[Sonnytoo]

Those articles were by Evan P. Marshall, Detroit Police Department patrol officer and homicide detective. He personally attended more than 400 autopsies and interviewed emergency room doctors to determine the street-effectiveness of common handgun loads.
He published the book, HANDGUN STOPPING POWER; the Definitive Study, in 1992 along with Ed Sanow of Indiana Sheriiff's Department.
Published through Paladin Press, P.O. Box 1307, Boulder, CO 80306.
My SWAT-cop son-in-law gave me the 200-page 8 1/2" x 11" hardcover for Xmas years ago. Full of top-flight info. Check your library.
Just for kicks in data and reference section:
.357 Fed 125-gr JHP: 462 shootings, 96.96% one-shot stops (on perps)
.45 Auto: Fed 230gr Hydra-Shok came in second. These are the two top bullets from all available manufacturers at that time. Top 9mm LE load exactly ties top .44Mag load, but both (and all others) are less than the .357 top dog and the .45 Auto (2nd place).
I realize that there are many newer loadings out there, but you got what I got. The book is full of good stuff: Short-bbl ballistics, Specialty ammo, FBI data, Results from the street, tissue stimulants, shot placement, etc.
So you can see why I usually carry my .357 snub or .45 Ltwt Commander.
If you carry a weapon, I really recommend that you get the book. The info you gain might save your life.
Sonnytoo

 

[tek4260]

Good discussion. The concern over firing high pressure .45 Colt cartridges in "low pressure" firearms is nothing new.

I understand that some "low pressure" firearms chambered in .45 Colt will accept a .454 Casull cartridge! I had one "troublesome" Ruger .45 Colt Blackhawk with sloppy chambers that would indeed chamber the rounds for my Freedom Arms .454's!

A man's gotta know his firearms' limitations, eh?

flatgate

My Uberti will also chamber 454's. Have seen folks buy 454's to shoot in their Snake Charmers as well as Rossi single shot .410's. They say they have no problem..... I have heard one person say that they carried their lightweight Judge loaded with 454's, but has not shot any yet because he hasn't had time to try em out. I tried to warn him as best I could, but I am not sure he will take my advice. :shock: I figure he will only need one shot to find out why.

 

[protoolman]

I also like the bigger bores like .45 Colt . As far as which police round was and is the most effective you have to look at design and development. What made the 125 gr. Loading the #1 stopper in many studies was design and development. The .45 ACP as I remember got pretty good stops with the lighter weight CCI "flying Ashtray "bullets. Unfortunately with the nice big hollow point they wouldn't always feed so few Departments carried them. Load development makes all calibers better. A bullet that opens well in .357 will not open so much at .38 special velocities so they score the jacket deeper, maybe go with a lighter weight bullet to give it more velocity etc. If you are reading any study over 10 years old the data may be totally obsolete due to better design of the modern bullets. The 380 certainly was never a good self defense round but some of the modern designs makes it a "fair" choice these days. Also agree that Ayoobs griping on reloads for defense argument has been shot to heck. No one ever was able to state a case where it was a deciding factor. There is no magic bullet but I love the versatility of the .45 Colt. I load em heavy (320 gr.) and light (255 gr.) and they will do about anything I want them to. If I could only have 2 handguns I'd have a MKII .22 auto and a Blackhawk .45

 

[sunday bill]

The 45 Long Colt is my pick. It'll do everything I need it to do and then some.

 

[CraigC]

While I own several .45Colts in varying strength levels, the .44Mag was my first love in big bores and remains my favorite. It tends to be more accurate out of the box and does not suffer from the ambiguous chamber dimensions that seem to plague the .45Colt. I accept the fact that the .45Colt has a slight edge in strong guns at the upper end of the spectrum but the truth is, there are few situations where a 335gr at 1200fps is necessary. The difference is not as great as some would lead you to believe and it's rarely relevant. Standard weight cast bullets at moderate velocity will completely penetrate anything you'll encounter in the lower 48.

EDIT: However, looking at the loading data on Hodgdon's site, I see that the .44Mag has an edge in velocity over the .45Colt. With comparable 325's, 330's and 355's, the .44 has a 100fps advantage over the .45.

 

[yankee7809]

I tend to agree and for the same reasons as you note, Craig. The .44 Magnum has a cleaner bill of health, gun to gun dimensionally speaking.
If someone wants big time performance they have less to worry over than if they were tweaking a .45 Colt. Yes, with the .45 Colt the sky's the limit particularly if you want to throw a little money around. Or if you have some gunsmith skills and equipment. You can create what amounts to a .454 Casull lite with the five shot cylinder. The question begs, however, Is it still a .45 Colt? Well I guess if you go by the headstamp on the cartridge cases then it is... I dunno.

 

[Crazy Horse]

I can't think of a better choice than a Ruger vaquero bisley in 45 LC.

 

[TRanger]

If energy figures alone are to be believed, the 22/250 is a better killer than the 45/70. The standard pressure .45 Colt is never and has never been a bad choice for personal defense.

So a .22-250 will give complete penetration on a bison?

No friend; I was making a point about placing too much emphasis on paper energy figures. :roll:

 

[CraigC]

I think the reloads for self defense myth has been proven as such. Ayoob was involved in a discussion on the subject on TFL and two or three cases were presented. None were very good examples and one was a suicide and it did not hinge on reloads.

 

[victank1]

The 45 Colt can be a very versital round and the 454 casual is a step up but I finally bought a 460 S&W the other day and DAMN what a rush. If you load the Colt to the max it is like shooting 38 wad cutters in your 357 mag. This thing has more knock down power at 200 yds as a 44 magnum has at the muzzel. The rounds we were shooting were 200 grain balistic tips at 2250 ft per and at 230 yards you could hold a dead on sight and hit what you shot at. But as far as the 45 Colt. It is as of now the only round I shoot enough to reload. Great round

 

[writwing]

I think the reloads for self defense myth has been proven as such. Ayoob was involved in a discussion on the subject on TFL and two or three cases were presented. None were very good examples and one was a suicide and it did not hinge on reloads.

Do we know what facts a jury used in their decision? No! Home grown ammo is one more thing a prosecuter can use against you.

 

[protoolman]

I think the reloads for self defense myth has been proven as such. Ayoob was involved in a discussion on the subject on TFL and two or three cases were presented. None were very good examples and one was a suicide and it did not hinge on reloads.

Do we know what facts a jury used in their decision? No! Home grown ammo is one more thing a prosecuter can use against you.

Not really the search was on for Ayoob to show a case hinged on such, I believe the best he did was show it had been brought up-that was about it. They bring up all kinds of things in court everyday anyway. For instance it would probably be more damning to show you owned "multiple" guns therefore you were a "gun nut" just looking to "kill things" for instance. In the realm of things they can and might bring up reloads don't even make the radar.

 

[CraigC]

Home grown ammo is one more thing a prosecuter can use against you.

It's a common fear but it's pretty much been proven to be a myth. There was butone case where it might've, sort of, could've been construed to be an issue but it surely was not a deciding factor. If you want to know more, look it up on TFL. I just don't remember any more details than that.

 

[yankee7809]

I'D rather be alive and facing a ridiculous civil suit than dead in a coffin facing those really bad hours.

 

[oldgoat46]

I find my Redhawk 4" to be much more pleasant to shoot than the 44 mag and when I'm fishing in Bear country I carry the redhawk in a chest pouch loaded with buffalo Bore 300 grain JFN which has plenty of power. published specs are 1325 fps @ 1267 ft #s. I don't shoot those in the single actions but I love the 45 LC I have a new model Vaquero and an Old Army with conversion cylinder. It's just something about that cartridge. I swear sometimes I can hear ghosts when I load em.

 

[Colonel Daddy]

I'm very partial to the .22 LR, .32 mag., .44 Special, .44 Mag., .45 Colt and .454 Casull.

flatgate

And I might add .45AR 'just because'!
It depends on one's purpose for the gun. Never did I feel under-gunned when cc'ing a GP100 3" .357
Tho somewhat large, the 1917 Colt has been carried, thus the .45 Auto Rim.
I'd consider carrying, at times, a short bbl Redhawk in .45 Colt.
They are all good, it just 'depends'

 

[M'BOGO]

If energy figures alone are to be believed, the 22/250 is a better killer than the 45/70. The standard pressure .45 Colt is never and has never been a bad choice for personal defense.

So a .22-250 will give complete penetration on a bison?

No friend; I was making a point about placing too much emphasis on paper energy figures. :roll:

I didn't see the smiley face with the tongue in cheek. I'm not a paper guy myself, and I was'nt funnin' at you. Just thinking about an angry bull with a pimple like wound on his shoulder, wonderin how fast I could run.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

I have many handguns anything from 22 single six to 500 S&W mag. I have 3 45 colts and 4 44 mag's. I like them all as long as they have the shorter bbl's. The 45 is a great choice and a fine cal. The one I shoot the most is my single six in the measley little 22 it has the 4 5/8" bbl and I own every cal that ruger sells with the 4 5/8" my 500 is a 4" and I also have a 454 alaskan. Plus a couple of 7 1/2" rugers. They are all great cal's. It boils down to whatever you are comfortable using for the particular job at hand. My bedside gun is a kimber custom 45acp I have more powerful pistols but that is what I chose for that purpose. I have confidance in it and have shot it quite a bit. To me its the perfect gun for the job.