Why convert a DA/SA revolver to DAO?

[ediogenes]

I've seen it here and on other forums on which I lurk, but I don't understand why anyone would want to it. If you want to shoot DA only, then don't cock the hammer - just aim and squeeze the trigger. If you don't want to catch your clothing on the hammer spur, just put your thumb over the spur as you draw the gun.

I know this sounds like a rant, but I don't mean it that way. I just think that revolvers (and pistols, for that matter - we'll hear from the Glock corner soon, I'm sure, and yes, I'm baiting them) should have hammers, and hammers should have spurs. The revolver retains all its designed capability - double action for quick shots at close range, single action for accuracy at long range.

I've always thought that the only purpose for DAO revolvers is so employers (police departments, security guard companies, etc.) can cover their fourth points of contact (a paratrooper term - you can Google it) by imposing DAO shooting requirements on their employees whose fourth points of contact are actually on the line.

I frequently conceal my 2-3/4" Ruger Speed-Six in a Don Hume IWB and never have a problem with the hammer catching on my cover clothing. At the range I practice both shooting modes, quick shots in DA and long-range shots in SA. I would never consider limiting my DA/SA revolver, and thus my options, to only one course of action.

Just my 2¢. (Why is there no ¢ key any more?! There was one on my grandfather's old Remington manual typewriter that I used for term papers in high school! Yeah, I found it in the Character Map, or ALT+0162. Next thing, we'll be pressing '1' for English on Ruger Forum. Ooops...this is a rant. Sorry. Never mind....)

 

[Snake45]

The primary reason for doing this is that in case of a defensive shooting, no one can accuse you of cocking the gun and then having it "go off" accidentally. This has actually come up in a couple of court cases.

 

[JmE]

I've been told that it's primarily about catching on clothing, which you already covered; especially with pocket carry. I couldn't cozy up to a spurless hammer DOA though... just didn't like it and I kept trying to cock it out of habit when I'd draw.

 

[SAJohn]

I, for one, would never give up to option of single action.

 

[toysoldier]

Back when revolvers were actually small enough to carry in a pocket, and people did just that, the issue of the hammer spur snagging was quite real. Some manufacturers dealt with it by shrouding the hammer. Some left enough hammer exposed to allow thumb-cocking.

The size and weight of today's revolvers necessitates holster carry, and the problem of snagging on clothing is greatly reduced. DAO eliminates the possibility of a carefully-placed shot, in a situation where the margin for error is quite small. For a "belly gun" it's OK, but not what you need in a hostage situation.

 

[eveled]

I never cock the hammer on my double action revolvers, I think it is poor form. The purpose of training with your carry gun is so you are good with it when you need to be. I practice in double action, so I'm ready to shoot in double action. I got a good deal on my sp101 and it is a DAO, I haven't missed the hammer yet. Conversly my security six and model 60 both have hammers and I have no intention of bobbing them, but I never cock the hammers. Most of my revolvers are single action, Ed

 

[pisgah]

Once you learn how to use it, DA fire becomes obviously superior to SA for defensive shooting, much faster and as accurate. I don't delete the SA capability on my DA/SA guns, but I virtually never use it.

 

[rkrcpa]

I had the hammer bobbed on my 696 because I got tired of banging my elbow on the hammer spur. It is also DAO because I did not want a situation where the bobbed hammer could be cocked single action.

I purchased this as a defensive revolver and didn't feel I needed single action capability. When the hammer was bobbed I also had the action smoothed. I can hit an 8" plate at 50 yds with enough regularity that I expect a hit, not a miss. It is certainly accurate enough for defensive purposes. I have a J Frame size .38 configured in a similar fashion for pocket carry.

 

[Meeko]

I say this as a lead firearms instructor for an agency that uses DAO autos. On hunting revolvers single action is a great option. On a defensive revolver in most self defense circumstances there "normally" isn't time to thumb cock a hammer to single action. You will be faster with shooting DA than single action especially once trained on properly. Yes by theory SA triggers can be more accurate but there is a big difference between shooting bullseye targets with time on your side and a defense scenerio. Also what one has to consider is in a defense scenerio is if you cock the hammer on a revolver and the situation changes, unlike a modern DA/SA auto a revolver is not as safe to "decock" anytime let alone under stress since no safety or de cocker exist. The bobbed hammer on the wheelgun helps as well as being snag resistant on both full size and compact Ruger SP101 size.

While we all have our preference. DAO is a viable defensive tool that is consistant, it's all how you are trained and prior programing (think Jerry Miculek).

 

[JmE]

While I agree with you in a general sense, Meeko; I can't agree in all specific cases. I started on single action as a very young lad and it's as natural to me as anything else a person is taught at a young age. I've tried to learn to use double action effectively and came up short on results. Could I, with much practice, become much more proficient with DA? Sure I could but never as proficient as single action shooting engrained in me as a child. I'm just good enough with DA to use it in run of the mill citizen self defense at typically anticipated range. SA, however, is instinctive for me and, as such, I'm far more comfortable and confident with that action on a revolver designed for it. Likewise, my next choice in handguns, in relation to proficiency, is the 1911. That's the one that I carry when going to the larger cities. All of that said, I did, at one time, carry an SP101 exclusively. I never was really comfortable with it even though I changed out the spurless hammer. It does find its way on my belt as a BUG sometimes and I do still carry only the SP101 on short, unexpected, walks to one of the barns. This is because I don't have a "pajama holster" for the Vaquero yet. :wink:

Boiled down, I cock and shoot an SA only revolver faster and more accurately than I have been able to train myself to shoot a DA only revolver. Related to your given scenario of holding a revolver... I can be holding my birdshead 3.75" Vaquero uncocked and then cock, shoot, and hit what I'm aiming at much more quickly, safely, and accurately under stress than I can do the same, double action, with my 2.25" SP101. All of which basically re-enforces your statement of, "it's all how you are trained and prior programing."

 

[Meeko]

While I agree with you in a general sense, Meeko; I can't agree in all specific cases. I started on single action as a very young lad and it's as natural to me as anything else a person is taught at a young age. I've tried to learn to use double action effectively and came up short on results. Could I, with much practice, become much more proficient with DA? Sure I could but never as proficient as single action shooting engrained in me as a child. I'm just good enough with DA to use it in run of the mill citizen self defense at typically anticipated range. SA, however, is instinctive for me and, as such, I'm far more comfortable and confident with that action on a revolver designed for it. Likewise, my next choice in handguns, in relation to proficiency, is the 1911. That's the one that I carry when going to the larger cities. All of that said, I did, at one time, carry an SP101 exclusively. I never was really comfortable with it even though I changed out the spurless hammer. It does find its way on my belt as a BUG sometimes and I do still carry only the SP101 on short, unexpected, walks to one of the barns. This is because I don't have a "pajama holster" for the Vaquero yet. :wink:

Boiled down, I cock and shoot an SA only revolver faster and more accurately than I have been able to train myself to shoot a DA only revolver. Related to your given scenario of holding a revolver... I can be holding my birdshead 3.75" Vaquero uncocked and then cock, shoot, and hit what I'm aiming at much more quickly, safely, and accurately under stress than I can do the same, double action, with my 2.25" SP101. All of which basically re-enforces your statement of, "it's all how you are trained and prior programing."

I hear what you are saying and some folks are fine at that but most are not. I know some of those CAS shooters are phenomenal at running single actions. I also have a couple Blackhawks and Single Six's I love shooting but I am quicker with my DA revolvers or autos especially from the holster which usually in a defensive scenerio is where you will start out from. If your lucky you might get to start off with your handgun in your hand but usually we don't get to pick the time or place. If so I'm taking my rifle! LOL!

 

[JmE]

but I am quicker with my DA revolvers or autos especially from the holster which usually in a defensive scenerio is where you will start out from. If your lucky you might get to start off with your handgun in your hand but usually we don't get to pick the time or place. If so I'm taking my rifle! LOL!

I was referring to this part when writing about a revolver in the hand...

Also what one has to consider is in a defense scenerio is if you cock the hammer on a revolver and the situation changes, unlike a modern DA/SA auto a revolver is not as safe to "decock" anytime let alone under stress since no safety or de cocker exist.

What I was trying to express was that I'm quicker, safer, and more accurate with an SA only revolver than a DA only revolver in that situation. With DAO, I can get the shots off but they won't be as accurate or potentially safe as when I do so from SAO in the same amount of time. Also, my firearm has rarely cleared leather without being sure that I was going to fire. (Remember, we're talking citizen self defense, not peace officer... different situation.) If my SAO revolver was drawn and I, for whatever reason, wasn't in the active process of firing it, my proficiency with SA is more so than with DA in that I would be cocking, aiming (point or quick sight picture), and firing quicker (again, more accurately and safely too). The fact that one might need to decock the single action is, IMHO, a small disadvantage compared to all of the advantage that I personally gain from SA over DA. Up very close is the only situation in which I might prefer DAO over SAO (revolver or auto). Then again, I was trained at a young age to create distance for hand to hand so I would tend to do that by instinct in the split second prior to firing. In one incident with a screwdriver about to stab me in the back, that instinct kicked in before I had time to draw and then the screwdriver was in my left hand. If I'd have simply drawn, my kidney or liver would've likely been damaged severely as the attacker was adept at that sort of thing. (In truth, I can't remember anymore if I was armed with a handgun as I was heading to work at an not-at-all friendly to guns hospital and it predated my state's concealed carry laws so we were all carrying on an affirmative defense contingency.)

In the realm of autos, I used to carry a Ruger P89 DAO with similar results. I simply was much more proficient with a 1911 than I ever was able to become with the P89. Even though I would have to sweep the safety off on the 1911, in cases except really, really up close, I'd be more accurate and safer with it over the P89.

Anyway, I drew the thread farther off topic as it was about converting a DA/SA revolver to DAO. In that regard, my cocking of a DA/SA revolver is much slower than of an SAO revolver so perhaps it a bit more of a wash for me. Still, I wouldn't want to lose the ability to shoot SA with my defense revolver. Also, before changing the hammer on the DAO SP101, I would try to stroke a non-existent hammer spur on stressed draws. It messed my timing up some. After replacing the hammer, I was able to DA draw as my thumb would find the hammer and slide on down to the grip without cocking the revolver. The fluidity of my draw returned and I was much more comfortable about using it.

 

[David LaPell]

I have never really warmed to DAO revolvers, or pistols for that matter. I have shot Glocks for a number of years because that is what our issue guns were, but I have preferred a good 1911 or a Browning Hi-Power to those. In my revolvers I would never give up the SA capability of any of my gun, even though for a time I had an older beat up Colt Agent I had thought about bobbing the hammer on. This year I picked up a Smith 649 as a concealed carry gun which to me is the best of both worlds. I have the ability to use SA on this gun but the hammer is covered enough not to give me any worries when it comes to snagging on clothing. I was hoping Ruger and other companies would have followed up on Smith's design with a spur hammer or like the old Waller shroud but few really did. I know this spring I was trying to rid my garden of a pesky woodchuck and I was out with my 649 and using SA i was able to hit him around 10 yards out. I might not have gotten him with just the double action. It's nice to have that alternative.

 

[any ruger]

Single action worked for Bat Masterson, Doc Holiday Wild Bill and a few others .

 

[Cape Cod Terry]

:D This summer I bought a used Charter Arms .44 spec Bulldog in the original box. It was DAO but in the box was a spurred hammer new in a plastic bag. Don't know why more companies don't do this, it couldn't drive up the cost by more than 10 or 20 bucks, and you could always switch back if you didn't like it either way. While I am happy with the way the gun shoots DAO, I may put the other hammer in this winter to see if I like it better.
Cape Cod Terry :D

 

[JmE]

It was DAO but in the box was a spurred hammer new in a plastic bag. Don't know why more companies don't do this, it couldn't drive up the cost by more than 10 or 20 bucks, and you could always switch back if you didn't like it either way.

That's a good point. I'd also like to see that become the trend.

 

[eveled]

While I like the idea of being able to switch back and forth, I think the vast majority of buyers get the gun they want configured the way they want it. I don't need to spend an additional $20 for a part I don't want. Are you sure the extra hammer was included with the gun when it was new? Or thrown in by the previous owner?

Ed

 

[41 Magnum]

The best way to avoid litigation over weather or not you shot someone accidentally because you were in SA mode, is to shoot them multiple times. Always double tap, "everyone gets a minimum of two, with no exceptions !!!!" Just normal practice !!

 

[tdubb]

My daily carry is a Ruger SP101 2 1/4 inch barrel and I would never bob the hammer. It gets lots of use, as it should. SA is handy for longer shots when you have time, so pretty much never in a defensive situation but, since I carry all the time SA comes in handy when I'm out on the property and get a chance at a groundhog.

One of the stages in the competition I shoot is prone from 25 yards at a partial silhouette. This is probably an unrealistic situation but, you never know what might happen. I'd rather have the option than not.

The hammer has never caught on my clothing or caused any other issue. I do not pocket carry, it is just too big for that. Even when I had my little .380 pocket carry never worked for me.

 

[TreeDoc]

Took the girlfriends gun and had the hammer bobbed. Why? She was developing muscle memory habit of cocking every time before she shot. I was constant in reminding her about double action shooting, did no good. When I would back off or the next time we were at the range, she would start all over again. I had bought her this old heavy barrel smith 38 for defensive shooting. After the work was done to the hammer, on our next range trip. Wish I could have had a camera, she instinctively tried to thumb back the hammer. She looked at me and says "what the hell"

 

[JmE]

She looked at me and says "what the hell"

:lol:

 

[Meeko]

Wish I could have had a camera, she instinctively tried to thumb back the hammer. She looked at me and says "what the hell"

Funny, I hear that almost every day and it isn't in reference to firearms!

 

[djturnz]

Single action worked for Bat Masterson, Doc Holiday Wild Bill and a few others .

I think with a Glock and enough magazines I could have ruled the wild west. lol

 

[bogus bill]

In 1966 in los angeles there was a case where lenard deadwhiler was speeding his wife to the hospital to have a baby. He was stopped for speeding and the officer leaned in the car with his DA revolver cocked. Somehow deadwhiler started out again and the officers arm was jarred and the gun went off. That case made johnny cockran. Afterwards lapd made alterations on their revolvers to fire DA only. You got me why a officer would need to cock a gun on someone he had the barrel screwed in his ear but I can easily speculate.
I had the spur taken off my S&W model 60 and flattened and checked so it could be cocked with care for single action fire if I wanted to shoot SA. I did it to not snag my pants pocket as I never carried it in a holster or pocket holster, I carried it for about 35 years that way untill it was stolen along with my truck. I always just carried it in my pocket. Of course neither ever showed up. I replaced it with a old s&w model 40 hammerless but really I miss my model 60. I shot it plenty in SA mode. It got shot everytime I went out shooting with my other guns even if it was only for a couple shots. I would do it all over again if I found another s&w 36 or model 60. I see no good reason to de spur any revolver worn in a holster.

 

[ronto]

I recently traded a DAO SP101 for the DA/SA model. The 14# trigger of the DAO was getting to be too much for my arthritic hands and the 6# trigger in SA mode was much easier...the method that worked well for the old west gun fighters is good enough for me.

 

[Boge]

...Single action worked for Bat Masterson, Doc Holiday Wild Bill and a few others .

...the method that worked well for the old west gun fighters is good enough for me.

You guys need to lay off the Western Channel. Your typical criminal today ain't packin' a hogleg. Most people don't like DAO shooting for the simple reasons that it's hard to master and many shooters are lazy. They want to goof around and plink and not do serious training. That's fine & dandy.............unless you carry a CCW. Then one needs to do some serious preparation. Elmer Keith himself said that DA revolver shooting was the hardest skill to master with a handgun and he's right. I don't care how good someone is with a cocked revolver in broad daylight at a local range as your chances of being held up and robbed at gunpoint are pretty slim at the Izaak Walton Club. :P

DAO shooting takes more focused practice/training but the dividends are worth it in that it makes one a better all 'round shooter and that includes better SA shooting when hunting or plinking as it teaches one how to master the trigger.

If you still say no then read this by one of the preeminent revolversmiths in the country:

http://www.grantcunningham.com/blog_files/the_case_for_dao.html

 

[JmE]

While I don't necessarily disagree with most of that... many of us that carry a single action only revolver as an EDC do just fine. I'm most proficient with my single action followed very closely by my 1911. I'm proficient enough with my SP101 but it would probably take me years to get to the same level as with the other two platforms. I cannot afford the ammunition to do that and frankly am not willing to spend that amount of my time. It's great for those that choose to but it simply isn't my cup of tea.

 

[Brasso]

I have always shot a revolver better in double action. Regardless of how much time I have to shoot. I think it has something to do with reducing the tendancy to flinch as double action shooting requires follow through and the shot tends to surprise you. Best I can figure.

 

[Joe S.]

If I wanna shoot SA, I grab a Ruger. When I shoot a DA, I shoot it DA. I haven't had it deleted cause my carry guns are hammer less DAO's and I don't carry a DA/SA. But I don't shoot a DA in SA mode....

 

[ediogenes]

I think with a Glock and enough magazines I could have ruled the wild west. lol

Naw, you woulda just shot yourself in the laig and bled to death. :P