What Can We Trust?

[SGW Gunsmith]

I've been involved with the inter-web since it has begun advising folks what's good and what's bad, for just about ANY subject brought up. Especially involving subject matter that I have dealt with for almost 50 years. I can report knowledge involved with actual experience involved with what works versus what is posted that's down right dangerous, yet all those who present bullsh!t that is not recommended by many of the obvious experts who recommend safe useage of not those who recommend otherwise, not quelled. WHY is the admiration of those who know better than what some profess to be safe, not given the credence that's deserved?
If these forums were to profess recommended procedures that are absolutely proven to be safe operating procures were to be recommended, THIS site would get much less recommended reference as being a very plausible place to visit.

 

[grobin]

This is an open forum dedicated to real solutions-unlike Facebook & Mainstream media it's not censored! That means that you need to question posts and evaluate the answers-not be a sheep and safely graze! There are silly posts and stupid opinions rife on the 'net. No matter how much I hate them, I will defend to death their right to be biased, ignorant, liers to my death. It's up to you to sort things out.

Too many folks here seem to lack a scientific approach and consider clinically what is going on. You need to verify beliefs with reproducible experiments. This means knowing the signs of over pressure or even buying a pressure barrel and receiver, not simply taking someone's word not blithely eating the BS from some published source.

 

[Pat-inCO]

I guess I missed something.

What has ANY of that to do with Rimfires?
Or even guns, other than by implication?

Here's something to help you explain:

 

[1gunsnotenough]

Are you seeking admiration?

 

[Fox Mike]

I must have missed something somewhere. It appears that you are saying that you are an expert and no one else is?
". . . . I can report knowledge involved with actual experience involved with what works versus what is posted that's down right dangerous, yet all those who present bullsh!t that is not recommended by many of the obvious experts who recommend safe usage of not those who recommend otherwise, not quelled. WHY is the admiration of those who know better than what some profess to be safe, not given the credence that's deserved?. . . ."
Would you give us an example of your wisdom?

 

[contender]

I had to read, then re-read tho OP a few times to try & understand what was being discussed.
Then, I read the few responses.
From what I can hopefully understand, the OP has a lifetime of being a gunsmith. (Handle name as well as this being a gun Forum, and discussion about safe & unsafe things.)
I ASSUME,, he has seen some advise given here & maybe elsewhere that in his opinion is not safe nor is the way he does things. (Am I correct in this?)
As such,, he appears to be frustrated that some folks will take the advise of others over his.

If all my assumptions are correct, or close to being correct,, I can offer this for discussion.

(A) I have seen advise given here & elsewhere that I feel in my opinion is not the best, yet, for some people,, it seems to work.
(B) Some advise is followed because some gun tinkerers, are cheap, and do not want to pay for a professional to fix it right.
(C) Professional, or experts in a field need a way for others to accept their knowledge,, such as references by others. That is followed by direct, first hand experiences to where the folks who do not know anything about the expert, can reference back to them. (Example; Gun writers pen articles,, and if they become well known over time, they are accepted as knowing their subject. yet, some folks will still disagree with them.)
(D) Even experts will have detractors or others who will not take advise. (I know,, as I see it often in my daily work.)
(E) Quite often, there are others who are also professionals or experts who's opinions differ from their peers,, so you get conflicting opinions, even from knowledgeable people.

Have I given enough things to cause polite discussions?

 

[Dan in MI]

The initial post was a tough read, but I believe I see where the OP was going. Similar to Contender's answer(s).

While you may have serious expertise in the subject, I've read your responses and cruised your website quite a bit and think you do, there will always be opposing comments and ideas.

You have these and many more scenarios that also play into it.

1) some may think you are in internet expert (they either don't understand what you are saying or haven't done any background work/checks)

2) Some found a cheap way that worked for them. Maybe they have some skills, maybe dumb luck who knows?

3) maybe they have an axe to grind, whether with you or someone else that does your type of work.

4) some may not like how you get your point across

and I 'm sure there are more.

You have to be able to let idiots be idiots, or you can let it eat you up. That is your choice.

 

[Rancher Will]

The above comments are interesting. From my experience there is one other point not mentioned. Over my eight decades+ of experience I have noted a significant number of Experts have been proven wrong over time about a number of subjects. In fact, I tend to believe that as more truth about more subjects is commonly learned, even more Experts are proven wrong every year.

When the number of Experts increasingly object, or refute, previous Experts, perhaps it may mean that our total common knowledge of facts my be increasing, or not?

 

[blume357]

I was an expert in one thing a while back, then I recused myself.

I realized that in a real dispute, say going to court, both sides of the issue will have their own experts testify.... how can that be?

 

[Jimbo357mag]

In fact, I tend to believe that as more truth about more subjects is commonly learned, even more Experts are proven wrong every year.

When high-speed cameras and other technology like stress gauges are applied to guns and ballistics some of the old ideas disappear.

 

[Rick Courtright]

When high-speed cameras and other technology like stress gauges are applied to guns and ballistics some of the old ideas disappear.

Hi,

Would that such would happen sooner! We've still got guys posting in the Reloading sections of every gun forum I've ever visited who don't think there's any more value in the "scientific equipment" data available today than what's worked ok in the past. For some of them, "It ain't blow'd up yet" seems to be the definition of "safe." For some of us, "ok" worked until we got "better." And then "better" builds on itself with time.

As for the OP, I'm still trying to read that post and figure out just what it is he wants... personally, I have a hard time giving much credence to someone I can't understand.

Rick C

 

[Rancher Will]

One more point. It is well to understand that there is even more than one method of measuring the effects of bullets on various material. Over my lifetime various testing procedures have been reported. About the first that I recall, the Thompson-LeGuard tests years ago for the Army, using livestock at a packing house. There have been numerous mathematical formulas using velocity, bullet weights, momentum, etc.

Everyone has a choice and everyone can be an expert using their choice.

 

[Pat-inCO]

Keep in mind that this thread started in the rimfire sub section.

 

[Paul B]

I usually listen with a relatively open mind but sometimes one of the "egg-spurts" in one of the gun rags will say something I know for sure is wrong that I have to speak up. Case in point. One well known gun writer stated a 30-06 with a 1 in 12" twist barrel would not stabilize 220 gr. bullets. I have such a rifle, built originally to shoot cast bullets. I worked up a max load for that rifle using 220 gr. Sierra and Hornady round nose bullets, sent him the targets along with an accompanying letter. I also said that anytime he was in the area he could stop by, watch me load the ammo, shoot some and let him shoot some. He could even run a tight patch down the bore to verify the twist rate.

I got back a nice polite letter that started out. "I stand corrected" and went on. He said that he was going to be hunting in my area soon but would not have time to stop by. OK. About six months later in an article he inferred that "someone" had written him but he had no way of verifying what the "unknown" writer has done or not done. He had the opportunity to get the proof, yet refused it.

Another thing I sometimes get flack over is loading past published book maximums. Most of the time it's not a good idea and one will not get an argument from me. However, certain cartridges are deliberately underloaded by the factories for one reason or another. The 7x57 due to the weak (?) early Mausers, the .280 Remington so Big "R" could sell pump and semi-autos using the round. Same thing with the .35 Whelen as well for the same reasons. Add the 30-06 to the list due to the early 1903 Springfields that were improperly heat treated. Another would be the .257 Roberts as early on some used the small ring early Mausers to build their rifle. Proper data, especially for the 7x57 is sadly lacking for many reasons but if one has a strong modern actioned rifle, I see no reason to work up a proper load for the rifle.
I hesitate to state just how fast my M70 Featherweight will push a 150 gr. bullet but will just say it's snapping very hard on the heels of the .280 Remington. Brass life has been excellent, primer pockets still snug, and accuracy way better that I though the rifle would do. (.50"-.60")
A properly loaded .280 Rem. will do 2900 FPS with the 160 gr. Speer Grand Slam. Again excellent brass life, tight primer pockets and so far the largest group has been .75".

I do not ask anyone to try what I've done regarding proper loads for underloaded factory ammo. I can explain exactly how I work up those loads and how I determine what is safe for my rifle. Anyone who tries is does it on their own. I only state what has worked for me.
Paul B.

 

[hittman]

What Can We Trust?

Our own experiences based on what we want, need and expect.

To the OP, you may always have the correct answer. However, that doesn't mean you always have the only correct answer.

That's only my opinion. Yours may differ but that doesn't make either of us wrong or stupid.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I've been involved with the inter-web since it has begun advising folks what's good and what's bad, for just about ANY subject brought up.

When did that start? Anyway, if you look up soldering two pieces of wire together on YouTube you can find about a hundred different ways to do it, everything from backyard campfire soldering to aviation or NASA or military standards.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+solder+wires+together

 

[Jeepnik]

Maybe I also missed something, but the run on sentence or at least missing punctuation in the original post left me a bit confused. Then again I suspect a mind altering substance might be involved. I could be wrong and indeed may be. But my first thought was "someone's been at the sauce".

 

[SGW Gunsmith]

I must have missed something somewhere. It appears that you are saying that you are an expert and no one else is?
". . . . I can report knowledge involved with actual experience involved with what works versus what is posted that's down right dangerous, yet all those who present bullsh!t that is not recommended by many of the obvious experts who recommend safe usage of not those who recommend otherwise, not quelled. WHY is the admiration of those who know better than what some profess to be safe, not given the credence that's deserved?. . . ."
Would you give us an example of your wisdom?

I give you much credit for understanding my point. Unfortunately, there are always that very few who go right into a very negative response, even after they are sent a needed part for FREE. I do keep a list for that sort, so I never make that mistake again.
I guess I just don't understand some responses, not necessarily here, but on many of the other firearms forums, that continually LOOK for negativity in posts where some have gained experience from actually doing, rather than "parroting" what someone else has already posted. Seems you like to indulge in that Mike.
OK, I've learned something here, especially about you 'Fox Mike'. No, I'm not an expert, and show me where you got that from and where I said so. Just the opposite, I post stuff that I've done that actually has worked, more than once.
I'm just trying to get an understanding of why that bothers some folks, like yourself. Don't like my suggestions, ignore 'em.

 

[SGW Gunsmith]

I've been involved with the inter-web since it has begun advising folks what's good and what's bad, for just about ANY subject brought up.

When did that start? Anyway, if you look up soldering two pieces of wire together on YouTube you can find about a hundred different ways to do it, everything from backyard campfire soldering to aviation or NASA or military standards.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=how+to+solder+wires+together

Soldering? Wow, that's a real stretch!

 

[SGW Gunsmith]

This is an open forum dedicated to real solutions-unlike Facebook & Mainstream media it's not censored! That means that you need to question posts and evaluate the answers-not be a sheep and safely graze! There are silly posts and stupid opinions rife on the 'net. No matter how much I hate them, I will defend to death their right to be biased, ignorant, liers to my death. It's up to you to sort things out.

Too many folks here seem to lack a scientific approach and consider clinically what is going on. You need to verify beliefs with reproducible experiments. This means knowing the signs of over pressure or even buying a pressure barrel and receiver, not simply taking someone's word not blithely eating the BS from some published source.

Couldn't agree more!

 

[SGW Gunsmith]

Maybe I also missed something, but the run on sentence or at least missing punctuation in the original post left me a bit confused. Then again I suspect a mind altering substance might be involved. I could be wrong and indeed may be. But my first thought was "someone's been at the sauce".

Well, "Jeepnik", I sure don't know YOU and I know dang well you know absolutely NOTHING about me. But as far as your extremely, "SNIDE" accusation, which was completely unwarranted, I hope we never do meet!

 

[Fox Mike]

I must have missed something somewhere. It appears that you are saying that you are an expert and no one else is?
". . . . I can report knowledge involved with actual experience involved with what works versus what is posted that's down right dangerous, yet all those who present bullsh!t that is not recommended by many of the obvious experts who recommend safe usage of not those who recommend otherwise, not quelled. WHY is the admiration of those who know better than what some profess to be safe, not given the credence that's deserved?. . . ."
Would you give us an example of your wisdom?

I give you much credit for understanding my point. Unfortunately, there are always that very few who go right into a very negative response, even after they are sent a needed part for FREE. I do keep a list for that sort, so I never make that mistake again.
I guess I just don't understand some responses, not necessarily here, but on many of the other firearms forums, that continually LOOK for negativity in posts where some have gained experience from actually doing, rather than "parroting" what someone else has already posted. Seems you like to indulge in that Mike.
OK, I've learned something here, especially about you 'Fox Mike'. No, I'm not an expert, and show me where you got that from and where I said so. Just the opposite, I post stuff that I've done that actually has worked, more than once.
I'm just trying to get an understanding of why that bothers some folks, like yourself. Don't like my suggestions, ignore 'em.

Please, tell me what you have "learned about you Fox Mike." I wasn't "bothered" as you say so much as confused. I asked the question mainly because I had no ideal what you were speaking about and the sentence structure lead me, and others, to believe that if it wasn't 'your way' it was no way.
Now, if asking a question twists your shorts in a knot they so be it. Perhaps you ARE the greatest gunsmith since the beginning of time; I don't know but, if so, you need to learn to properly express your concerns and issues to the less informed and less capable.
As has been stated, one way is not always the only way.

 

[jpickar]

I have conversed with the OP on another forum. He is just a self proclaimed know it all and proceeds to dismiss anything anyone else has to offer. He is a very good person to deal with when you buy something from him.
John

 

[Rick Courtright]

I have conversed with the OP on another forum. He is just a self proclaimed know it all and proceeds to dismiss anything anyone else has to offer. He is a very good person to deal with when you buy something from him.

Hi,

In my years running a trap & skeet range, I had the opportunity to meet, visit and/or work with a fair number of gunsmiths. All "real" ones, the kind who COULD go out in the shop and build or rebuild a gun from the ground up with the tools and knowledge they each had. We had a few decent kitchen table smiths in the crowd, too, though they tended to be more the R&R type: remove and replace vs make.

One of the first things I learned about gunsmiths--at least the old timers--is they each have THEIR way to do whatever job we're talking about, and each one's is the ONLY way to do it properly! Should we say there were some highly opinionated discussions after about five o'clock when the "Closed" sign went up in the window? Once you get past that, they were all pretty decent folk... one even taught me a heckuva lot about flyfishing! Sadly, most of the guys I'm thinking about have passed on to a more ethereal gun shop.

Rick C

 

[RolandDeschain]

JMHO, but the amount of time a person spends on internet forums is inversely proportional to the quality of advice they dish out..

 

[protoolman]

Mr. SGW I have looked over your services on your website as well as followed your posts on MKII's. I can see your dedication as a student of and the modification of these guns. I even have considered contacting you about drilling and tapping my gov't model also your sight insert service for other MKII's I own. As far as your complaints in this thread, my advice is don't worry about people disagreeing with you. Life is too short, and you will just lose customers arguing. No one knows everything and even after filtering the BS on any forum I still learn a lot every day.