On my gun stock finishes I am not happy with true oil its soft and hoppies will take it off, I bought some special tung oil with some kind of varnish in it from Brownells, does anybody know if I can just go over the true oil with the tung oil and it will be all right???
True oil vs toung oil???
- Thread starter chuck
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SweetWilliam
Buckeye
I've used true oil on 3 different rifles & shotguns & have never had a problem with it. And it's been over 20yrs. ago. If I remember correctly I put at least 5 or 6 coats on. Sanding with steel wool between coats.
Are you talking about hoppes solvent?
Are you talking about hoppes solvent?
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
Wood is wood. Don't make any difference whether it's a gunstock or a dining room table. If you hit the finish with the wrong solvent it will come off. True Oil is basically linseed oil and mineral spirits. Other "oil" finishes such as WaterLox may, or may not, contain tung or other plant oils. Many contain polyurethane or other ingredients. All true natural oils are slow to dry and harden and some never do. BLO (linseed) is about average in that respect as is tung oil, both cure slowly - sometimes takes weeks or months - and remain relatively soft compared to finishes such as shellac.
When choosing a wood finish, my advice is to read the MSDS for it and compare it to other similar finishes. Don't just rely on the advertising. Many so called 'tung' oil finishes have no tung oil in them at all - Formby's Tung Oil Finish is one such.
I've used many different finishes (waxes, shellac, wipeon varnishes, laquers, "Danish" oils, etc. ) on various projects, and none of them are impervious to everything.
I'd also recommend this book if you're serious about finishes:
Understanding Wood Finishing: How to Select and Apply the Right Finish Hardcover – January 1, 1994
by Bob Flexner http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-Finishing-Select-Finish/dp/0875965660/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-4&keywords=bob+flexner
When choosing a wood finish, my advice is to read the MSDS for it and compare it to other similar finishes. Don't just rely on the advertising. Many so called 'tung' oil finishes have no tung oil in them at all - Formby's Tung Oil Finish is one such.
I've used many different finishes (waxes, shellac, wipeon varnishes, laquers, "Danish" oils, etc. ) on various projects, and none of them are impervious to everything.
I'd also recommend this book if you're serious about finishes:
Understanding Wood Finishing: How to Select and Apply the Right Finish Hardcover – January 1, 1994
by Bob Flexner http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Wood-Finishing-Select-Finish/dp/0875965660/ref=sr_1_4?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=undefined&sr=1-4&keywords=bob+flexner
Precision32
Blackhawk
The US military used Raw Linseed Oil (RLO) as the finish on gun stocks. For a very short time they used Tung Oil (TO) at the arsenals, but RLO is all that was issued for stock maintenance. The only advantage of TO over RLO is that TO will smoke less under sustained firing of the rifle.
I use Flax Seed Oil from the health food section at the super market. It's the same stuff as RLO.
I use Flax Seed Oil from the health food section at the super market. It's the same stuff as RLO.
Enigma
Hunter
Excellent info from GunnyGene. I would recommend stripping the Tru-Oil from your stock before applying anything else.
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
I switched from True Oil to Formby`s Tung oil several years ago. The cost was the main thing. I make pistol grips and after opening a bottle of True oil it will start to dry in the bottle and get thick before I can even use up half of it. The Formby`s Tung oil actually is a little easier to work with and ends up being half or less the cost of True Oil even if I waste half of it. I thin it with Turpentine and spray it on larger projects like a full size gun stock. A little spray gun(automotive touch up gun) from Harbor Freight works great.
WOB
Bearcat
True-Oil is ordinary alkyd varnish with about 11% BLO added to make it easy to rub on by hand. The BLO actually degrades the quality of the finish that could be obtained by using varnish alone. Back in the day before modern poly finishes hit the market, most custom stock makers used a good grade of spar varnish. BLO was almost never used unless the customer requested it because it never gets truly hard, takes too long to cure , gets dark with age, and is not water resistant. Tung oil is better, but also takes time to cure.
The newer polyurethane based finishes are far superior to any of the natural oils. They dry fast, hard, and are waterproof. Some examples are Chem-Pak Pro Custom Oil, Permalyn Gunstock Finish, and Minwax Wipe-on Poly( oil based). I like the latter because it is readily available at the nearest hardware store and responds nicely to the sanded-in procedure for grain filling and finishing.
WOB
The newer polyurethane based finishes are far superior to any of the natural oils. They dry fast, hard, and are waterproof. Some examples are Chem-Pak Pro Custom Oil, Permalyn Gunstock Finish, and Minwax Wipe-on Poly( oil based). I like the latter because it is readily available at the nearest hardware store and responds nicely to the sanded-in procedure for grain filling and finishing.
WOB
GunnyGene
Hawkeye
Chuck 100 yd said:
I also use Formby's - not because it's the best out there, but because it's readily available and reasonably priced compared to others, and gives satisfactory results. But I also mix my own wipe-on varnish, which is what Formby's is. Basic formula for these kinds of finishes is equal parts BLO or tung oil, polyurethane, and mineral spirits. Some experimentation with the ratios might be needed to obtain desired drying/cure time, etc.
Many folks are content to buy off-the-shelf finishes tho, and don't realize what they're getting. Which is ok really, since most of the products like this are perfectly fine. The thing to keep in mind is that once you open the can (or mix your own) and oxygen gets to it, the usable life drops quickly. Once I open one up I pour what I need into a small jar for that project. I put the rest in a larger Mason jar and drop some marbles in it to push out as much air as possible each time I get some out.
Similar process with other finishes such as shellac, which I prefer to mix myself using flakes and Denatured Alcohol. This allows me to customize the cut and tint, for different applications.
If you do a lot of finishing it's also cheaper to mix your own. Just like reloading. :wink:
One other thing: How you apply a finish is just as important as the finish itself. We've all heard that preparation is key to a paint finish, and it's even more important with an oil/poly or shellac finish. Flexner's book goes into some detail about this aspect. Humidity and temperature play a part also.
woodsy
Blackhawk
I am a retired furniture maker. The post from WOB is the true deal. Wipe-on finishes have come a LONG way in the past few years. Enough to negate almost everything in Flexner's book, which was written 20 years ago, and which had been my "bible" for a few years, until I did some personal communication with Bob and determined that he was something of a "stick-in-the-mud".WOB said:
I have NEVER gotten a customer complaint from my use of the wipe-on poly's, regardless of the furniture end-use. True-Oil is simply linseed oil, which is much more than obsolete, compared to modern finishes. Tung oil is slightly more durable, but still far behind polyurethanes (of any application method).
Method of application is FAR less important with wipe-on poly's than ANY "traditional" finish. Again, Flexner is 20 years old.
As far as I know, Tru-Oil is linseed oil with the addition of "drying agents".
I have refinished innumerable sets of handgun grips with Tru-Oil and never had a problem. Only time I've heard of a problem with it is if it was applied too heavily. I apply six to eight light coats, rubbing with my fingers until it begins to feel "dry" and then letting it sit overnight. I then rub down with 0000 steel wool, and repeat. On the last two coats I do not use the steel wool, and let it get good and hard, then rub down with a soft cloth.
I tried RLO on a Garand stock once. Terrible mistake. Had bad advice. After getting that removed I used BLO, hand-rubbed. and was quite happy with it as a "service" finish.
I have not tried the newer finishes, so I cannot comment on them. I'd like to believe some are quite nice.
JMHO
:_
I have refinished innumerable sets of handgun grips with Tru-Oil and never had a problem. Only time I've heard of a problem with it is if it was applied too heavily. I apply six to eight light coats, rubbing with my fingers until it begins to feel "dry" and then letting it sit overnight. I then rub down with 0000 steel wool, and repeat. On the last two coats I do not use the steel wool, and let it get good and hard, then rub down with a soft cloth.
I tried RLO on a Garand stock once. Terrible mistake. Had bad advice. After getting that removed I used BLO, hand-rubbed. and was quite happy with it as a "service" finish.
I have not tried the newer finishes, so I cannot comment on them. I'd like to believe some are quite nice.
JMHO
:_
muzzleloader
Single-Sixer
- Joined
- Mar 25, 2011
- Messages
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Chuck 100 yd said:
Chuck, have you tried the trick of dropping marbles in the bottle to use up the airspace before recapping? I think I read that somewhere once.
Yeah, or tightly capping it and storing it upside down.
Chuck 100 yd
Hunter
muzzleloader , I have done that but find if I buy the Formby`s Tung oil by the quart I will end up wasting about half of it anyway.
What I do now is ,I fill a small bottle full of it and quickly recap the main can squeezing it to expel the air and snapping the cap while squeezed so there is a vacuum in the can.
The main can seems to stay fresh for months that way and if it starts to thicken a little so it don`t want to spread well then I just thin it a little with turpentine.
When I finish grips or a stock with Tung oil, I thin it about 25% and soak in a base coat and wipe off the excess and let dry. Probably do this twice depending on how porous the wood is. I then will coat a grip panel with straight tung( it only takes a couple drops to cover one side of a panel. Set it on wax paper to dry. I give both sides three coats and reduce with 0000 steel wool to remove all the build up. It may take repeating the above for 8-12 coats until all pours are filled before steel wooling down and a couple thinned final coats are rubbed on. Sometimes I spray the final coat or two on especially for larger pieces.
This is very time consuming but the resulting finish comes out very nice and is as durable as I can get short of epoxy type plastic finishes.
What I do now is ,I fill a small bottle full of it and quickly recap the main can squeezing it to expel the air and snapping the cap while squeezed so there is a vacuum in the can.
The main can seems to stay fresh for months that way and if it starts to thicken a little so it don`t want to spread well then I just thin it a little with turpentine.
When I finish grips or a stock with Tung oil, I thin it about 25% and soak in a base coat and wipe off the excess and let dry. Probably do this twice depending on how porous the wood is. I then will coat a grip panel with straight tung( it only takes a couple drops to cover one side of a panel. Set it on wax paper to dry. I give both sides three coats and reduce with 0000 steel wool to remove all the build up. It may take repeating the above for 8-12 coats until all pours are filled before steel wooling down and a couple thinned final coats are rubbed on. Sometimes I spray the final coat or two on especially for larger pieces.
This is very time consuming but the resulting finish comes out very nice and is as durable as I can get short of epoxy type plastic finishes.
I want to thank everyone for your comments, I'm going to put Brownells Kem dry tong stuff over the linseed stuff, I'll let you know how it turns out it may be a while, I'm up to my neck with a contractor building a walk in shower in my home
woodsy
Blackhawk
" is as durable as I can get short of epoxy type plastic finishes."
And yet, that isn't quite true since there are no epoxy formulations which have a UV blocker or absorber. UV rays will quickly degrade epoxies exposed to them, which is why no commercial makers use them on their products, unless they follow up with a UV-blocking top coat(s). Then, the epoxy affords no benefit. What people are seeing when they assume an epoxy coating is really a catalyzed polyurethane finish, which is extremely durable and UV-resistant. Such finishes CAN be obtained by regular consumers, in large quantities, with a definite shelf-life, whether used or not (they'll cure right in an unopened can, because they are pre-catalyzed). Large users of these fantastic coatings purchase non-catalyzed versions and then add the catalyst during or just before use. But we regular users cannot get those coatings unless we buy a heck of a lot (think large drums). The large users include furniture companies, and, yes, firearms makers the size of Ruger, Smith, Marlin, etc.
One more thing: the pre-cat and not-yet-cat polyurethanes are expensive. Wipe-on poly's remain the MOST durable and cost-effective coatings we small users can get. And, they are much more durable (not just somewhat) than anything else, including linseed oil, tung oil, etc. The final "look" of the finish depends on the person applying it.
And yet, that isn't quite true since there are no epoxy formulations which have a UV blocker or absorber. UV rays will quickly degrade epoxies exposed to them, which is why no commercial makers use them on their products, unless they follow up with a UV-blocking top coat(s). Then, the epoxy affords no benefit. What people are seeing when they assume an epoxy coating is really a catalyzed polyurethane finish, which is extremely durable and UV-resistant. Such finishes CAN be obtained by regular consumers, in large quantities, with a definite shelf-life, whether used or not (they'll cure right in an unopened can, because they are pre-catalyzed). Large users of these fantastic coatings purchase non-catalyzed versions and then add the catalyst during or just before use. But we regular users cannot get those coatings unless we buy a heck of a lot (think large drums). The large users include furniture companies, and, yes, firearms makers the size of Ruger, Smith, Marlin, etc.
One more thing: the pre-cat and not-yet-cat polyurethanes are expensive. Wipe-on poly's remain the MOST durable and cost-effective coatings we small users can get. And, they are much more durable (not just somewhat) than anything else, including linseed oil, tung oil, etc. The final "look" of the finish depends on the person applying it.
Busterswoodshop
Buckeye
I like Teak Oil myself.
WOB
Bearcat
If you want to know what is in True-Oil see this: https://www.birchwoodcasey.com/getattachment/1494e4eb-436e-42b5-8767-3cc1e87db4b4/Tru-Oil%C2%AE-Stock-Finish.aspx
The "modified oil" component is without doubt some kind of chemically modified natural oils such as linseed, tung, soya, walnut, safflower, etc. The other two components speak for themselves. The 56% mineral spirits evaporates completely over time and points out the problem of trying to build a glossy finish with True-Oil. If you get in a hurry and don't allow the solvent to get out of each coat before applying the next coat one, you end up trapping some solvent in the finish which will eventually evaporate. The result is shrinkage of the coating and after a few months, it is likely the pores you worked so hard to fill will reappear. Been there and it happened to me.
WOB
The "modified oil" component is without doubt some kind of chemically modified natural oils such as linseed, tung, soya, walnut, safflower, etc. The other two components speak for themselves. The 56% mineral spirits evaporates completely over time and points out the problem of trying to build a glossy finish with True-Oil. If you get in a hurry and don't allow the solvent to get out of each coat before applying the next coat one, you end up trapping some solvent in the finish which will eventually evaporate. The result is shrinkage of the coating and after a few months, it is likely the pores you worked so hard to fill will reappear. Been there and it happened to me.
WOB
caryc
Hawkeye
I've made plenty of grips in over ten years of making and selling grips and all I've ever used is Tru Oil.
Here is the secret to never having it dry out on you in the bottle. I buy the stuff by the quart only because it's cheaper that way. But you can buy it in smaller bottles and still use the same method of storing it.
See the picture below. The first thing you need is a can of Bloxygen. It's an inert gas that takes the place of air when blown into a container. In the picture you also see a glass bottle. This is a bottle from Tapo Tia hot sauce. You need this type of bottle because it has the long neck on it.
The come in two sizes. Pictured is the smaller size I use as a "working" bottle. The next size up is a couple inches taller. When I open a quart of Tru Oil, I pour it into three of the larger bottles and one of the smaller "working" size bottles.
When using these bottles, only fill with Tru Oil up to where the neck starts to get smaller. You then stick the small spray tube of the Bloxygen down into the neck of the bottle and give it a squirt. This will drive out all the air.
Then what you want to do is cover the glass bottles with aluminum foil so no light gets to the Tru Oil. The oil stored this way will last indefinitely.
In the picture you also see a small plastic container. This is a quarter oz. Buddy cup. You can purchase a pack of these at www.misterart.com
They have a hinged lid on them but I cut the lid off with scissors and it makes it a lot easier to use them. I use the working glass bottle to pour Tru Oil into the little plastic buddy cup. That is what I work with when doing my grips. When the Buddy cup gets low, I just refill it from the glass bottle making sure to top off the glass bottle with Bloxygen.
After using the Buddy cup and working on a pair of grips, I store it with the lid facing down. I also place a couple inverted dixie cups over it to keep out the light.
Air and light are what dries out Tru Oil. If you use the method I've described above you can keep Tru Oil indefinitely.
Here is the secret to never having it dry out on you in the bottle. I buy the stuff by the quart only because it's cheaper that way. But you can buy it in smaller bottles and still use the same method of storing it.
See the picture below. The first thing you need is a can of Bloxygen. It's an inert gas that takes the place of air when blown into a container. In the picture you also see a glass bottle. This is a bottle from Tapo Tia hot sauce. You need this type of bottle because it has the long neck on it.
The come in two sizes. Pictured is the smaller size I use as a "working" bottle. The next size up is a couple inches taller. When I open a quart of Tru Oil, I pour it into three of the larger bottles and one of the smaller "working" size bottles.
When using these bottles, only fill with Tru Oil up to where the neck starts to get smaller. You then stick the small spray tube of the Bloxygen down into the neck of the bottle and give it a squirt. This will drive out all the air.
Then what you want to do is cover the glass bottles with aluminum foil so no light gets to the Tru Oil. The oil stored this way will last indefinitely.
In the picture you also see a small plastic container. This is a quarter oz. Buddy cup. You can purchase a pack of these at www.misterart.com
They have a hinged lid on them but I cut the lid off with scissors and it makes it a lot easier to use them. I use the working glass bottle to pour Tru Oil into the little plastic buddy cup. That is what I work with when doing my grips. When the Buddy cup gets low, I just refill it from the glass bottle making sure to top off the glass bottle with Bloxygen.
After using the Buddy cup and working on a pair of grips, I store it with the lid facing down. I also place a couple inverted dixie cups over it to keep out the light.
Air and light are what dries out Tru Oil. If you use the method I've described above you can keep Tru Oil indefinitely.
woodsy
Blackhawk
All that work, just to result in one of the poorest-performing finishes available. At the very least, it's traditional, as in old-hat.
There is progress in finishes, though many refuse to acknowledge it. If one applies these old finishes to the "safe-queens" in their collection, no harm, no foul. But if one wants to take advantage of some aspects of progress, just look around; it's creeping up on us, like it or not. And there are NO downsides to the new wood finishes, besides discarding the questionable results of the past (unless one owns a flax farm, from where linseed oil derives).
There is progress in finishes, though many refuse to acknowledge it. If one applies these old finishes to the "safe-queens" in their collection, no harm, no foul. But if one wants to take advantage of some aspects of progress, just look around; it's creeping up on us, like it or not. And there are NO downsides to the new wood finishes, besides discarding the questionable results of the past (unless one owns a flax farm, from where linseed oil derives).
caryc
Hawkeye
woodsy said:
Yeah...I guess you're the expert. What the heck do I know about anything?
