Starline brass problems

[44shootist]

Anyone have problems with Staline brass before? Took 100 rounds of 200 new never fired 357 I loaded to the range to shoot in my Blackhawk I've had for 30+ years and this brass was stuck in my cylinders almost every one when trying to eject them, some near impossable to eject they were stuck so hard.
For some reason the brass seams to have expanded to large or something?
Used the same bullets and power for the same load I have done for 30 years so I know it's not the load, had a box of Federal I reloaded at the same time that have been reloaded so many times I lost count with no problems what so ever with them when I tryed them so I know it's the starline brass, maybe a bad run? Wonder if Starline will do anything about it? have never called there customer service before but plan to Monday.

 

[PECKER]

I haven't measured but seems to me star lines brass is thicker than most factory brass, could be reduced case capacity due to the extra meat in the case? :roll: maybe someone with more experience will weigh in

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Starline brass is well spoken of in most reloading circles. I use at least a bit of it myself.

However...

Starline was THE brand that convinced me to size, trim and chamfer all my new handgun brass exactly as I do w/ rifle brass! No manufacturing process is perfect, and the overall QC of my Starline brass is about the same as other brands I've used. In other words, for maximum consistency, some prep work's in order.

Then, there's the old warning to "start low, work up" w/ ANY change of component. Brass is as much a component to trigger that caution as any other. As has already been noted, Starline's may be a bit thicker (I haven't checked that) and, if so, the internal capacity would be lower, w/ increased pressures to be expected if no other changes are made.

If you haven't done that already, suggest you try it and see if you get better results.

Rick C

 

[contender]

Just to add a little bit. Yes,, Starline customer service is good.

 

[volshooter]

I only buy Starline pistol brass. My el-cheapo Lee stuff makes them A#1 for me.

 

[Larry from Bend]

I use StarLine for warm 44 Special loads ---- never a problem.

 

[44shootist]

These case's were all sized chanfered and trimmed I treat all new brass like fired brass.
Could very well be a thickness problem, they look a little stretched where the bullets are seated, all my non Starline case's do not have a stretch mark where the bullet sets.
I also have 200 rounds of Starline brass in 44 Mag. I have reloaded 2 times now not a single problem with the 44 what so ever.

 

[Rclark]

Anyone have problems with Staline brass before?

Nope. But then I never load really 'hot' either. Most all my brass in .357, .44Spec, .44Mag, and .45 Colt are Starline cases. Never have trimmed them either and still work just fine. Of course new brass does get chamfered.

 

[44shootist]

These loads in this bad Starline brass were NOT hot loads, were loaded to Min. starting load in my manual I have used this load for over 30 years in every other brand of brass and never this problem till now.

Should have sent it back when it showed up 6 rounds short of 100 in one sealed bag, and 5 in the other, the reloading supply was kind enough to send me some make up shells at his expence to cover for Starlines mistake.

 

[Donaldjr1969]

What did the case diameter measure, both at the neck and the base, after sizing but before firing?

 

[pistoleer44]

I have gotten into the habit of running my new brass thru the sizer before I load them the first time. Avoids these problems

 

[WESHOOT2]

Size new cases always.

I'd personally be highly interested in knowing the specifics of your 30-yr load.

 

[44shootist]

Like I said all cases were sized before loading, called Star today they want me to send them some samples, but stopped short of saying they would do anything about them.

 

[Dthom]

Have you been shooting .38 special in your gun?

 

[Donaldjr1969]

Have you been shooting .38 special in your gun?

Good point there. The carbon ring may be small enough to permit chambering yet present a problem with sticky extraction. A few months ago, I shot some 44 Special handloads in my Super Redhawk that I had treated the hard cast bullets with Mule Snot (Lee Liquid ALOX) to see of leading would be reduced. Granted, these bullets already had Thompson Blue Angel lube in the lube groove and that is probably too hard for 44Special pressures. So I tried Mule Snot to see if that reduced leading.

After 2 to 3 cylinders of them, I fired some 44 Magnums afterwards. That first cylinder of magnums was a major pain to extract! I really had to use a lot of force on the ejector. But after a patch soaked with solvent rant through the chambers, the subsequent extraction was easy. Now I have fired 50+ rounds of 44 Special beforehand and never encountered difficult extraction. So it had to be residue from the Mule Snot residue in the chambers that stuck to the magnum cases.

One thing I have also noticed with my lead bullet handloads using softer lubes like BAC or Carnauba Red, if I get too much lube on the outside of the cases, I have to wipe those clean with something like mineral spirits, MEK, etc. Otherwise, I have had sticky extraction from getting lube on the cases and not cleaning it off prior to shooting.

 

[44shootist]

No 38 SP's in this gun since I bought it new in 1978 it has never had a stuck case problem ever till Starline was put in it.
I had some Federal reloads with me I shot with no problem after these were getting stuck.
No lead bullets have ever been shot in this gun all bullet have been jacketed.
I clean my guns well and leave no carbon in them, I even clean the carbon off the back side of the cylinder.

 

[Cholo]

I'd personally be highly interested in knowing the specifics of your 30-yr load.

I would too, and wonder why this important inquiry has been dodged.

 

[mike7mm08]

All brass is a bit different in it's make up. I have not had issues with starline at all. One thing I have noticed is federal and winchester brass seems a bit soft and works a lot easier than other brands. Here is were my train of thought is heading. Did you readjust your dies to the starline brass? Specifically the flare die? If the case mouth is not flared very well you could be slightly bulging the case when you seat the bullet. So the case is already a bit large add the expansion of firing and you have your stuck case issue.

I encountered some what the reverse of this problem. I ran a batch of 9mm brass mixed. No starline in the mix. Starline is what I set the dies up with. Did not think I needed to check anything. Well all the federal cases would not hold a bullet. I could push the bullets into the case with light thumb pressure. Of course I discovered this after running a couple hundred. I pulled bullets and resized. I readjusted the flare die and got things all set everything went fine. Next time around with the same setting and starline brass I could not get a bullet to start into the cases. I was smart and checked first that time. Obviously the brass make up or thickness or something was causing a difference with how the die was able to work the brass.

The federal brass is it the same length as the starline? I ask because a lot of people rarely trim brass for revolvers other than when new. If it is longer the same flare setting would not offer enough flare on the starline cases regardless of how the die was able to work the brass.

Case bulges after bullet seating is the main reason I run all my pistol ammo through a lee factory crimp die. It resizes after crimping. I know that all my ammo is going to be well within spec and will chamber just fine baring excessive loads it will extract just fine as well.

So I would look at your flare die adjustment and I would strongly suggest running all your loads through a lee factory crimp die. You don't even need to crimp but the resizing can make a world of difference.

The other thing that has saved me a lot of headaches is spending a little extra time anytime I change anything with a load. I mean anything. If I change anything even lot numbers of bullets and powder I start over completely. I don't take anything for granted. I start over from square one. I readjust all my dies, confirm powder charge etc. Sure in most cases I could just run everything as is and follow the old recipe and get along just fine. But if it saves me just one banging my head against the wall incident,that extra time is worth it to me.

 

[44shootist]

Mike7 yes I readjust my dies every time I reload cause I use different bullets trying different brands and types, I trim my brass to correct length so regaurdless of brand they are the same as what my manual calls out.

The load is Win. 231 8.6 Gr. with 125 gr. bullet out of a Speer reloading manual old as my gun, this is a starting load for target shooting.

 

[Cholo]

The load is Win. 231 8.6 Gr. with 125 gr. bullet out of a Speer reloading manual old as my gun, this is a starting load for target shooting.

You're probably referring to Speer manual #10 which I have in front of me. It's the only manual out of about 10 that even recommends 231 with a 125gr bullet in a .357mag. It's not recommended in #12 either. I know you've used it for years with no problems, but you havn't used it with Starline brass that I believe is thicker. It doesn't take much change in components with a fast burning powder to go from ok to not ok.

I know you said it's not the load so I'll just leave it at that. Good luck!

 

[44shootist]

Cholo,

The load is in the #11 manual, but you may have something here !!!!!
I Looked up the load in My newer #12 manual for starting load it is 7.6 GR. Max is 8.3 GR. Wow that's a little different don't know if that's enough to do much? only drops the muzzle velocity down about 200
So does this mean older brass was tuffer than new? my brass that handles the load just fine is 20 years old, and has been reloaded 10 times.

Maybe Starline needs to come out with it's own reloading manual if the cases are thicker and if that's the problem?

But I'll bet you I can go buy any brand of new brass other than Starline and it will handle the 8.6 GR just fine.

 

[mike7mm08]

Starline does not necessarily need to come up with it's own manual. You need to work up slowly to max loads or in this case a load that is over max. Over the years powders have changed slightly even if they are still sold under the same name. If you compare enough different powders in various calibers from old and new manuals you will see it is not uncommon for newer manuals to achieve the same velocities as the old manuals and do it with less powder. This is not the case with all powders but there are enough to prove to me that powders have changed over the years.

Also methods of testing pressures have been refined.It is very common for newer manuals to be a bit conservative. The new manuals give loads that more than likely will work across the board with all components. Once your beyond the tested loads your on your own and you will have to be real careful with the components you choose to use. No fault of the brass maker. They design their brass based on tested loads and pressures I would still try the starline loads through the factory crimp die. Might be enough to overcome the pressure issues.

 

[Cholo]

44shootist, my Speer #12 doesn't even list 231 as a recommended powder in your above combination. Just for reference purposes, mine is dated '94.

mike7mm08 said it well and it's why I have so many reloading manuals. Stuff changes and the powders of yesterday might not be the exact powders of today. I think your Starline brass is ok, if you change your load a bit. I use 231 much like I use Bullseye, powder puff loads. I think time has proven that 231 isn't even close to the best powder for your chosen load, even though it's worked for you for so many years.

I know what it's like to stay with what's worked for me for about 35 years of reloading. I had to make myself try 296 in my .44 mags. over 2400. I was pleasantly surprised! I think you will be too with a different powder.

 

[Rick Courtright]

The load is Win. 231 8.6 Gr. with 125 gr. bullet out of a Speer reloading manual old as my gun, this is a starting load for target shooting.

Hi,

For various reasons, at least one of which Cholo hit on the head, I ALWAYS double check ANYTHING I get from a Speer manual against another source or two.

Over the years it seems they've been known to be just a bit optimistic about how much of some powders one can fit inside a case and still be safe compared to others.

Just sayin...

Rick C

 

[44shootist]

My mistake on the #12 manual it is # 14 that has 231 loads at a lower rate, I also use win. 296 powder but for 44 mag loads for my rifle, guess I better not use it in whimpy Starline brass in the rifle, maybe I have had no problems with my Vaqureo useing Starline 44 mag brass is because I use Trail Boss powder for light cowboy rounds for target practice?

 

[mike7mm08]

I run all my 44 magnum in starline. All I shoot in my rifles is full bore loads of H110 or 296, they are the same powder. I even have gradually worked to a touch over max with some loads.

You know we all get you don't like starline brass because it won't handle YOU overloading it. Try some recommended current loads before you continue your rant about Starline brass. :wink:

 

[44shootist]

Mike7,
like I said it was a starting load, Not a over load works fine in any other brand of brass, some of which has been reloaded more than 10 times so it's not the load it is safe.

Bought some new Winchester, Federal, and Remington brass today, made 12 rounds of each brand using the same old load data, not a single problem firing any of them, I also made 12 rounds each of them using Win. 231 with 9.1 gr. which was the max load shot them afterwards no problems what so ever.

 

[mike7mm08]

Previously you listed your load as 8.6 grains. Which is .3 grains over the most current load data for the powder and bullet your using. Now your saying you are using staring load.So I really don't know what the the truth is here. I as well as others are just trying to help. Take it or leave.

 

[63November]

Mike7 yes I readjust my dies every time I reload cause I use different bullets trying different brands and types, I trim my brass to correct length so regaurdless of brand they are the same as what my manual calls out.

The load is Win. 231 8.6 Gr. with 125 gr. bullet out of a Speer reloading manual old as my gun, this is a starting load for target shooting.

125 GR. HDY XTP Winchester 231 .357" 1.590"

7.3 1335 33,800 CUP

8.5 1514 42,700 CUP

Thinking current 231 must be a bit warmer than old. Manual publishers insist that current manuals make previous data obsolete; advice worth considering.

 

[mike7mm08]

Well by this data he is only a .1 over max. But it still must be crappy starline brass. :roll: