Recommendations: .22 semi-auto pistol for target

[soldernut]

I'm in the market for a good, reliable, accurate .22 semi-auto pistol - and am looking for recommendations. I also have a few questions:

First, my requirements:

* Four to five inch barrel. Yeah, I want it for target work, but I find I'm plenty accurate with the 4" barrel on my Ruger KGP-141 (357 mag). This .22 may see double duty as a trail gun, so keeping it light and compact counts.

* Adjustable sights a must. I'm very fond of the factory adjustable sights on my KGP-141. The rear sight has a narrow, white line that follows the sight opening. I've chalked the back edge of the front sight white and the combination is superb for my eyes.

* Reliable operation with a broad range of ammo. I want to experiment with both some of the high velocity ammo, as well as some of the sub-sonic stuff. It'd be nice to have a pistol that can handle the range without malfunctions.

* Reasonable price. I'm setting my budget at a max of $400.

* A good used pistol is okay.

What's up with Hi Standard? I see these in gun shops, used, for crazy high prices: $1,000 plus. I'll grant that they have a nice, clean-looking design, but what makes them better than, say a used Browning Buckmark, Colt Woodsman, or Ruger Mark IIor III?

I've been looking at a few candidates, and here are my observations:

Browning Buckmark (current production): The slide serrations are silly-small, and placed under the sights where nobody with normal sized hands can make much use of them. Other than that, a pretty nice looking gun. Decent-feeling trigger.

Beretta (current production, target - not their little belly guns): What designer on acid from the Flash Gordon era designed these things? they look like a joke. Rough, crunchy trigger, too.

S&W "422" series. I wish I'd bought one when they were California legal. They are a very nice-looking desigh. Maybe I'll get lucky and find a used one in a local store.

Ruger Mark III and 22/45. Both look like good choices. I like the ergonomics of the 22/45 a little better, and don't mind the "plastic" frame. Reasonable prices. Decent trigger. If I could get a 22/45 with something other than one of those clunky bull barrels, I probably wouldn't hesitate. I think Ruger would do well to offer a 22/45 with a standard Mark III barel.

And, of course, I'm open to suggestions about other guns.

 

[E]

Some of the High Standards have a lot of history to them -- lots of military trainers and competition guns in their line-ups from the 40's to 60's (maybe even beyond). They are a classy .22 auto, but I wouldn't feel the need to spend a grand on one -- I've seen them for far less. I seem to remember my dad picking one up about 6 or 7 years ago for about $275 before trading it down the road for something else. Their basic operation will be the same as a Woodsman or a Buckmark.

The prices on Woodsman models just seems to keep going up, and they seem to be pretty scarce around here. I've probably seen only one or two at gun shows in the last five years, and I've never handled one, but my dad still pines for the Woodsman that belonged to his uncle but was passed on to another nephew. Not sure how much is nostalgia and how much is the greatness of the Woodsman.

Buckmarks are pretty scarce around here, and the only ones I've seen under $400 are the Camper model (bull barrel, fiber-optic sights) that Cabela's or Bass Pro stocks from time to time.

Though they look almost as silly as the Beretta Neos, the S&W 22A feels OK to me, and it shoots pretty well. They're available for way under your price -- you could buy lots of ammo and magazines. The 22A has one of the easiest mags to load I've ever handled, and the safety is frame-mounted like it should be.

I love the new 22/45 -- very reliable, points naturally, great price, bull barrel. If you found a Mark II 22/45 you could find one with the lighter, tapered barrel. Don't know if the sights were adjustable. There was a picture of one posted here on the forum in the last day or so. For the price, reliability and accuracy, I'd opt for a Ruger over any of the others.

 

[Snake45]

Ruger Mark III and 22/45. Both look like good choices. I like the ergonomics of the 22/45 a little better, and don't mind the "plastic" frame. Reasonable prices. Decent trigger. If I could get a 22/45 with something other than one of those clunky bull barrels, I probably wouldn't hesitate. I think Ruger would do well to offer a 22/45 with a standard Mark III barel.

That's the way I'd go. :wink:

 

[ranger1]

Ruger Mark III and 22/45. Both look like good choices. I like the ergonomics of the 22/45 a little better, and don't mind the "plastic" frame. Reasonable prices. Decent trigger. If I could get a 22/45 with something other than one of those clunky bull barrels, I probably wouldn't hesitate. I think Ruger would do well to offer a 22/45 with a standard Mark III barel.

This must be what you're talking about. They used to make them. Now you probably will have to search for a used one!

Ruger MK II 22/45 Model KP514 (5 1/4" Barrel)

Ruger MK II 22/45 Model KP4 (4 3/4 " Barrel)

 

[blume357]

I have a Ruger MKIII target with the 5.5" bull barrel...that's the only 22 semi-auto I own that is reliable.... I'd look at one of the new Hunters with the short barrel... 4" I think and in stainless steel (much more friendly in the woods). the grips are too thin on the 22/45 for me... but I think you can now fix that problem.

I have no problems with the Lock, loaded chamber indicator and mag disconnect on mine.... none of them have caused me one moment of grief while shooting.

the only disadvantage to owning one of these is two magazines is just not enough.... I finally settled on 10.

 

[cellar701]

The advice you've gotten above sounds pretty good. Sometimes you can find a Smith 41 or Colt Woodsman which have been modified/reblued or poor surface condition for around your price range, but they are really limited to Std velocity .22 offerings. I own the Smiths and Colts and they are great guns, very reliable but they typically have longer bbl lengths than you desire and limited on types of ammo.

 

[ranger1]

I have a Ruger MKIII target with the 5.5" bull barrel...that's the only 22 semi-auto I own that is reliable.... I'd look at one of the new Hunters with the short barrel... 4" I think and in stainless steel (much more friendly in the woods). the grips are too thin on the 22/45 for me... but I think you can now fix that problem.

I have no problems with the Lock, loaded chamber indicator and mag disconnect on mine.... none of them have caused me one moment of grief while shooting.

the only disadvantage to owning one of these is two magazines is just not enough.... I finally settled on 10.

Ditto on the Hunter with the 4" Barrel. I looked hard at that one before I choose the 6 7/8".
Another gun that I've considered is the CZ Kadet, but they sell for around $650.00.

 

[BlkHawk73]

Just as a FYI, I do believe there's some tapered barrel MKIII 22/45's coming in both the standard grip and as the RP models. They're to be blued ones with 4 3/4" bbls.

They'll be:

Item No:RUPMKIII4
Model No: 10138

and

Item No:RUPMKIII4RP
Model No: 10144

 

[contender]

Well, you have already narrowed your choices somewhat. The High Standards may cost you more to find one to fit your requirements,, as will a Colt or a S&W 41.
I must say,, we have a S&W model 22A that is an ok gun,, but it has a few issues when compared to our Rugers. I also own several High Stds but the prices of them have risen beyond your budget.
We've had a few gun club shooters who got Berettas,, and were a bit disappointed when they tried to compete with them,, against our Rugers.
So,, if I were you,, I'd get a bit more serious about the Ruger line.

 

[soldernut]

I have a Ruger MKIII target with the 5.5" bull barrel...that's the only 22 semi-auto I own that is reliable.... I'd look at one of the new Hunters with the short barrel... 4" I think and in stainless steel (much more friendly in the woods). the grips are too thin on the 22/45 for me... but I think you can now fix that problem.

I have no problems with the Lock, loaded chamber indicator and mag disconnect on mine.... none of them have caused me one moment of grief while shooting.

the only disadvantage to owning one of these is two magazines is just not enough.... I finally settled on 10.

Ditto on the Hunter with the 4" Barrel. I looked hard at that one before I choose the 6 7/8".
Another gun that I've considered is the CZ Kadet, but they sell for around $650.00.

[sn] How did I overlook the Kadet? I just bought a CZ 75B 40 cal and am mightily impressed. The Kadet could be the perfect training companion to the 75B since it's built on the same platform. It could be a match made in Heaven.

There are just two potential problems and, if not for them, I'd raise my budget and get the kadet in a hot minute.

The first is that I've pitched the .22 as a gun my wife could enjoy. Problem is, my 75B is not comfortable for her. She finds it too big.

The other potential problem (and I'd love to be corrected)...

All the .22 pistols I mention have fixed barrels and blow-back designs. My hunch is that the fixed barrel puts them in the same class, accuracy-wise, as a good revolver - and maybe even better.

The Kadet, on the other hand, and being a "75B," probably uses the same locked-breech, floating barrel design. This is one of the potential accuracy-killers in semi autos.

Unless tolerances are exceedingly good, and unless barrel and breech stay solidly locked up until the bullet leaves the muzzle, that barrel is going to move some, and have a negaive effect on accuracy.

I know that many 1911 owners pour small fortunes into "accurizing" their guns and I have a hunch that some of that money is spent to overcome loose tolerances and too short a lockup time.

Okay, on my CZ 75B, things certainly look tight enough. When the gun is in battery, you can shake the daylights out of it and hear not even a hint of a rattle. But I don't know if lock-up lasts long enough to ensure a tight barrel until the bullet leaves the muzzle - and I haven't shot it enough to have a good handle on its accuracy.

The factory ammo I've shot was all over the board. Some handloads with light (155 grain) bullets grouped much better, but weren't hitting anywhere near point of aim. (Point of aim seems to be tuned to 180 grain bullets.) So I probably need to do some careful 180 gr handloading to see my 75B at its best. That's on my agenda for this afternoon.

Is there anybody out there that can attest to the Kadet's accuracy as compared to a quality fixed-barrel design? If so, could you also comment on its tolerance for different flavors of .22 ammo?

 

[soldernut]

Well, you have already narrowed your choices somewhat. The High Standards may cost you more to find one to fit your requirements,, as will a Colt or a S&W 41.
I must say,, we have a S&W model 22A that is an ok gun,, but it has a few issues when compared to our Rugers. I also own several High Stds but the prices of them have risen beyond your budget.
We've had a few gun club shooters who got Berettas,, and were a bit disappointed when they tried to compete with them,, against our Rugers.
So,, if I were you,, I'd get a bit more serious about the Ruger line.

Contender: I am leaning toward the Rugers. I've shot them, several friends have them, and I hear only good reports.

Still, despite the price, I'd like to hear more about the Hi Standards. Are they so much better that the price is justified? If so, I'm a patient man. I can wait as my war chest grows and deals on used Hi Standards come up.

Your comments, though, (Beretta vs. your Rugers) sound like you prefer the Rugers over the Hi Standard.

 

[soldernut]

This must be what you're talking about. They used to make them. Now you probably will have to search for a used one!

Ruger MK II 22/45 Model KP514 (5 1/4" Barrel)

Yes! That's exactly what I'm talking about. I simply hadn't seen one. Another poster mentioned that some of these are due out. I'll need to see if they make it onto the silly California Roster of Legal Handguns.

 

[soldernut]

Just as a FYI, I do believe there's some tapered barrel MKIII 22/45's coming in both the standard grip and as the RP models. They're to be blued ones with 4 3/4" bbls.

They'll be:

Item No:RUPMKIII4
Model No: 10138

and

Item No:RUPMKIII4RP
Model No: 10144

Thanks Blkhawk73. Alas, neither of those models is yet on the dumb California Roster of Approved Handguns. Grrrr.

 

[timnc]

Have been shooting a MK514 past 12 years. After 25,ooo or so rounds, still as accurate as when new. With a Clark trigger and scope, will shoot 1" @ 50 yds off bench with Winchester Power Points And Federal HP. Likes most brands of ammo, these are the best. Gun only made 1990-93 and may be hard to find, but price shouldn't be too high. Only problem was broken extractor @ 22,ooo rounds-easily and cheaply replaced. Whatever you choose, shoot it a lot. They are FUN!

 

[ranger1]

Just as a FYI, I do believe there's some tapered barrel MKIII 22/45's coming in both the standard grip and as the RP models. They're to be blued ones with 4 3/4" bbls.

They'll be:

Item No:RUPMKIII4
Model No: 10138

and

Item No:RUPMKIII4RP
Model No: 10144

Here's one from Davidsons....The Model No. 10138

http://www.galleryofguns.com/genie/Default.aspx?item=10138&mfg=Ruger&mdl=22%2f45&cat=1&type=Semi-Automatic+Pistol&cal=22LR&fin=All&sit=All&zipcode=55316

 

[arrowhd]

Here is my .02 cents worth of advice.....

 

[Snake45]

Soldernut, from your previous posts, I can tell you that what you really need to buy is a 1911 of some kind and a .22 conversion for it. If you demand the ulitmate in accuracy you'll want the $500 Marvel conversion but I can tell you that the $250 Ciener Platinum Cup (adjustable sights) will shoot just as well for you. :wink:

I also know you well enough by now to know that you will ignore this excellent advice. Ah shucks oh well. :wink:

 

[ranger1]

Soldernut, you might also look into a CZ5 Kadet .22 adapter kit. That is of course if you don't buy a Ruger or the 1911. :D

https://shop.cz-usa.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=01610

 

[soldernut]

Soldernut, from your previous posts, I can tell you that what you really need to buy is a 1911 of some kind and a .22 conversion for it. If you demand the ulitmate in accuracy you'll want the $500 Marvel conversion but I can tell you that the $250 Ciener Platinum Cup (adjustable sights) will shoot just as well for you. :wink:

I also know you well enough by now to know that you will ignore this excellent advice. Ah shucks oh well. :wink:

[sn] Snake: Glad you jumped in.

You're a funny man! (And you have me close to nailed). :lol:

You may think that I'll ignore your excellent advice. Wrong! I've already figured you for somebody whose advice bears attention. (And thanks for all your previous replies in other topics.)

I may postpone followng your advice, and I may take another fork or two in the road befoe I get to it, but I have a hunch I will get there. So keep on comin' at me. It counts - and its' appreciated.

For a .22 target handgun, here's my personal benchmark:

Years ago, I had the pleasure of owning a S&W "K22" (I'm told it was called.) I picked it used for about $100 and was also told it was a .22 built on a .38 Special frame. I have no idea if any of that was true. What I can tell you is that it had a 6" barrel, adjustable sights, a sweet trigger, and was an absolute tack-driver.

I was a lot younger then (better eyes, etc,), but I well remember being able to put six shots virtually through the same hole at ten yards; with the group opening up to about the size of a nickel at 25 yards.

Now I have a friend that'll loan me his K-22 any time I like - and I take it to the range to keep my other guns "honest."

Yeah, I want/need a 1911. You win on that score, and I'm starting to shop around. One great frustrations is California's ridiculous Roster of Approved Handguns. The sweet 1911 people can easily buy in Florida isn't even on our list (unless the maker jumps through all manner of hoops and then pays CA a phenominal fee, er, bribe, to get listed).

Thing is, before I buy another big "personal" gun, I need to appease my better half, and she well remembers the fun that .22 was. She's already amenable to me buying a .22 autoloader - so long as I choose one she'd enjoying shooting, too.

Which is one of two reasons I'm favoring the Ruger MkIII or 22/45.

The other is sheer pragmatism. I can add a Kadet kit to my CZ 75B for several hundred bucks. More, anyway than I'd pay for a 22/45. Or I could buy a good 1911 (is there any point in buying anything less?), and then shell out more bucks for a .22 conversion kit.

Doesn't matter if the kit is Marvel or the Ciener, bottom line is this:

1: Investment will be greater than buying an ordinary dedicated .22, and

2: As I mentioned in an earlier post, there is a built-in difference in accuracy potential between a fixed-barrel, blowback design, and a locked breech, recoil design.

Unless I'm very wrong about the latter. I suppose that CZ, Marvel, or Ciener could design their conversions around a fixed barrel; I don't know nearly enough about autoloader mechanics to even guess.

However!

Now that you dragged the 1911 back in, I'll risk going running, ducking and hiding by askig another question:

When I buy a 45 ACP (notice the absence of "if"), and given that I now understand more about the cost of entry with great accuracy, why would I want a 1911 over, say, a H&K USP?

 

[soldernut]

Here is my .02 cents worth of advice.....

[sn] Okay. I'll bite. If it weren't for the grips, I might recognize it.

What is it?

 

[soldernut]

Soldernut, you might also look into a CZ5 Kadet .22 adapter kit. That is of course if you don't buy a Ruger or the 1911. :D

https://shop.cz-usa.com/item_detail.aspx?ItemCode=01610

[wn] ranger1 - thanks for the link. It confirms what I suspected. At $384 for the Kadet kit, it's less painful to buy a 22/45. (Sames goes for 1911 + kit - unless someday I develop Snakes' sources for used 1911 parts and his acumen for gunsmithing them into works of art.)

 

[ranger1]

Here is my .02 cents worth of advice.....

[sn] Okay. I'll bite. If it weren't for the grips, I might recognize it.

What is it?

Aftermarket grips are available the Buckmark! And as long a were in the evaluation stage, we haven't talked about the Sig Mosquito or the Walther P-22 or the SP-22. Now we've covered almost everything available. Oh, almost forgot..........the Kimber.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/products/pistols/rimfire/rimfire_target/

 

[arrowhd]

Okay. I'll bite. If it weren't for the grips, I might recognize it.

Browning Buck Mark Standard URX model. Several different models available with different barrels/grips. Very accurate and reliable IMHO. Good luck on your search. Lot of great options available.