problem with 45acp in blackhawk cylinder

[john123456]

ok its not so much the cylinder but the load when i put a round in it wont go all the way in. it is close but not all the way . a factory load goes in fine loads ive made before went in fine . length case and overall are good its acting like the case is to long but its not so im confused ive loaded thousands of rounds of 45acp never had any kind of strange issue like this. so just looking for ideas thanks

 

[mikld]

How far is not all the way in? Have you cleaned/scrubbed the cylinder? If the loads/case dimensions haven't changed, what did?

 

[Chief 101]

have you tried a taper crimp die?

 

[Jimbo357mag]

It's either the bullet or the case that's the problem. Where is it hitting?

 

[john123456]

Well it seems that somehow when I crimped them the lead from the bullet somehow flowed up around the case to make an extra little lip that its indexing on gonna take some steel wool and go over them lightly that seems to solve it ty for the suggestions also this is typed on my phone so sorry if its a Lil goofy
,

 

[Chief 101]

crimping 45acp with a roll crimp is not how this cartridge was designed...it changes the length and makes bulges...

 

[Lost Sheep]

Well it seems that somehow when I crimped them the lead from the bullet somehow flowed up around the case to make an extra little lip that its indexing on gonna take some steel wool and go over them lightly that seems to solve it ty for the suggestions also this is typed on my phone so sorry if its a Lil goofy
,

Ah, yes.

You are seating and crimping in the same step, aren't you? If the crimp is applied too early, the bullet is still being seated deeper as the case mouth digs into the sides of the bullet. This can occur with either roll crimp dies or taper crimp dies, though it is much rarer with taper crimp dies.

This produces two phenomena. One, you have observed. The other is case bulge below the case mouth, caused by compression of the case. Do it more and you get case buckling.

Back out the seat/crimp die body (and adjust the seating stem to compensate) and you will cure the problem.

Lost Sheep

 

[john123456]

i wasnt crimping with a roll crimp i use rcbs 45acp dies for acp and my 45 colt dies for 45 colt and yes it does it in the same step ill have to mess with it and adjust it

 

[Lost Sheep]

i wasnt crimping with a roll crimp i use rcbs 45acp dies for acp and my 45 colt dies for 45 colt and yes it does it in the same step ill have to mess with it and adjust it

Interesting. Can you post pictures?

I would try this:

Size, prime, charge as usual. Then seat a bullet to the proper depth without any crimp at all. You can do this by backing the body of the seat/crimp die WAY out (3 or four turns should do it) and adjusting the seating stem to seat the bullet to the proper depth.

Then back the seating stem out far enough that it will not contact the bullet nose at all. Removing it entirely if you want to be absolutely sure.

Run the cartridge with the seated, uncrimped case all the way up into the press and start screwing in the body of the seat/crimp die until you feel resistance. Then check the case mouth. When the belling is straightened out, check the chambering of the round in your cylinder (or for those following along who have self-loaders, check the chambering in your barrel, removed from the gun).

When your taper crimp is satisfactory (chambering is good and bullet retention by friction of the case mouth is good), run the cartridge up into the die all the way and screw the seating stem in until it contacts the bullet nose. Your die is grossly adjusted and any further adjustment should be in extremely small increments with chambering/retention checks often.

If this doesn't fix the problem, it is something else than what I supposed.

Lost Sheep

 

[Rclark]

Does a loose bullet go thru the throat with finger pressure? If the throats are to tight you will run into this too. Even after reaming to .4525, I've had to seat the lead bullets (weather 200g TC or 250g RNFP) deeper into the .45ACP case to get them to seat properly. Even then, once in awhile I have to use a bit of finger pressure to get a round to seat in a chamber. No need for heavy taper crimp either. Take out the bell and your golden.

 

[5of7]

You should be a little careful in crimping a rimless pistol ctg. because they headspace on the case mouth and too much crimp will increase the headspace, which is not good.

I have found that a rimless ctg with a slight crimp will still hold the bullet during recoil anyway. I think it is because as the gun goes into recoil, the mouth of the case is impacted on the end of the chamber and this has a tendency to put a little extra squeeze on the bullet at that point in time.

At least that is my unsubstantiated theory.... 8)

 

[Bud0505]

I had the same problem on y Lipsey flattop. A couple of chambers would not fully seat. S ent the cylinder smith and my promblem disappeared.

R/bud

 

[7mmb]

The exact same thing happened to me when I got my Blackhawk convertible. I loaded up 100 rounds with my brand new RCBS dies in brand new Starline cases, seating and crimping in separate steps, and two of the chambers would not load completely. They would load factory ammo though. I bought a Lee Factory Crimp die, which resizes the cartridge after crimping, ran the batch of ammo through it and problem solved. I just adjust it down a half a turn and it gives a perfect taper crimp. I use RCBS dies for all the handgun cartridges I load (357 Mag, 45 Colt, 45 Auto and 9mm) but crimp them all with Lee dies. Get the Lee crimp die and I bet your problem is solved too.

 

[Lost Sheep]

The exact same thing happened to me when I got my Blackhawk convertible. I loaded up 100 rounds with my brand new RCBS dies in brand new Starline cases, seating and crimping in separate steps, and two of the chambers would not load completely. They would load factory ammo though. I bought a Lee Factory Crimp die, which resizes the cartridge after crimping, ran the batch of ammo through it and problem solved. I just adjust it down a half a turn and it gives a perfect taper crimp. I use RCBS dies for all the handgun cartridges I load (357 Mag, 45 Colt, 45 Auto and 9mm) but crimp them all with Lee dies. Get the Lee crimp die and I bet your problem is solved too.

Were these cast lead bullets?

Cast lead are often made just a little oversized to ensure they will create a good seal with the bore-it reduces leading. Too much of a good thing, however, is not good. Bulging the case to the point where chambering is difficult sometimes occurs.

The Lee Factory Crimp Die (FCD) cures that by re-sizing (post-sizing) the finished round, but that brings with it a new problem-reduced neck tension and resultant possibility of crimp jump.

Brass is more elastic than lead, so after the post-sizing the brass springs back and the lead does not, loosening the brass' friction grip on the lead slug. Also, if the lead slug is sized down too far you get hot propellant gasses blowing past the slug as it goes down the barrel and concomitant leading.

Diagnose by putting an accurate micrometer on the lead and the brass at various stages during the loading process. Cure by getting bullets of the proper size. Another way to fix it is to get brass that is thinner in the case mouth. Thick brass exacerbates the problem and thinner brass may cure it.

I am a fan of the Lee FCD, but there are cautions to be observed with the post-sizing. It does an admirable job, however, of ensuring feeding and chambering.

This thread has some of the myths and truths.
http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?p=4327696

posts 14 and 16 are worth reading

Lee's web site Frequently Asked Questions has several paragraphs explaining Lee's thinking.
http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/112/0/carbide-factory-crimp-explanation
http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/148/0/speer-warning-on-factory-crimp-die
http://leeprecision.net/support/index.php?/Knowledgebase/Article/View/530/0/can-the-factory-crimp-die-be-used-to-seat-bullets-and-adjust-the-crimp

Remember, the FCD for bottlenecked (Rifle) cases is COMPLETELY different from the FCD for straight-walled (Handgun) cases.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Then there is this:

Not necessary 99% of the time, but convenient.

Lee Precision's thoughts on the matter can be found in these threads:

One thread contains a lively discussion of the FCD and the function of the post-sizing carbide ring in the FCD. The phrase "9mm" is in the thread title, but don't let that dissuade you. It contains responses direct from Lee Precision, too. Read the whole thing. It is worth it.
http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465091

this thread contains a poll

http://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=465603

Lost Sheep


The Virtue and the Vice
www.thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=509934

www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=691050

www.rugerforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=168362

http://www.rugerforum.net/reloading/65863-lee-fcd-pistol-not-rifle-virtue-vice.html#post814465

 

[7mmb]

Were these cast lead bullets?

No, they were West Coast plated flat points. Thinking back now the bullets may have been seated slightly misaligned. I was using the seater stem for SWC that came with the die set and I never had good luck with it. After a couple sessions I sent a sample of the bullets to RCBS and had them make a custom seater stem for those bullets. It straitens them out great and I have no problems now. I also use it for 45 Colt and it works great with Hornady XTPs too. I have a custom stem for 357 too that I use for 9mm flat points as well. The last time I loaded flat points in 45 Auto the FCD didn't resize anything so thinking back it was probably misaligned bullets. The FCD fixed them so they would chamber though. I still like and use the FCD for all my handgun reloads. It does make an excellent roll crimp for revolver rounds and is a lot easier to set up for a light or heavier crimp than the RCBS lock ring style dies. It also greatly simplifies crimping separately since you don't have to remove the seater stem and then readjust the die body to apply a crimp. For that reason alone they are worth it to me. I don't load lead bullets so the problems others have had with the FCD sizing down their oversized bullets don't apply to me. If I were to start loading cast I know I may want to break down and use a conventional crimp die.

 

[Lost Sheep]

Were these cast lead bullets?

No, they were West Coast plated flat points. Thinking back now the bullets may have been seated slightly misaligned. I was using the seater stem for SWC that came with the die set and I never had good luck with it. After a couple sessions I sent a sample of the bullets to RCBS and had them make a custom seater stem for those bullets. It straitens them out great and I have no problems now. I also use it for 45 Colt and it works great with Hornady XTPs too. I have a custom stem for 357 too that I use for 9mm flat points as well. The last time I loaded flat points in 45 Auto the FCD didn't resize anything so thinking back it was probably misaligned bullets. The FCD fixed them so they would chamber though. I still like and use the FCD for all my handgun reloads. It does make an excellent roll crimp for revolver rounds and is a lot easier to set up for a light or heavier crimp than the RCBS lock ring style dies. It also greatly simplifies crimping separately since you don't have to remove the seater stem and then readjust the die body to apply a crimp. For that reason alone they are worth it to me. I don't load lead bullets so the problems others have had with the FCD sizing down their oversized bullets don't apply to me. If I were to start loading cast I know I may want to break down and use a conventional crimp die.

Thanks. That clears up a lot of questions.

Some people solve the "sizing down" issue by simply knocking out the sizing ring from the FCD. A simple, elegant solution, despite its ad hoc appearance. Redding also makes a (rather more expensive) crimp die that avoids the post-sizing and Lee Precision will make an FCD with the post-sizing ring reamed out to your specifications on a custom basis. Of course there is a charge for this. Simpler to buy an extra seat/crimp die and remove the seating stem, to use as a crimp=only die. Cheaper, too.

Lost Sheep