Lee .223 Die Issue

[modrifle3]

I purchased lee .223 dies about 10 years ago and have only done a few loads with them, about 50. I am loading Noslar ballistic tips and with the lee dies in a lee single stage, I never get the same OAL with significant difference between shortest and longest. The are only 100yard rounds for little critters but was wondering if itbwas the shape of the seat or the shape of the rounds. I just bought a set of rcbs small base dies to try and see if there is a difference.

Anyone run into this withe lee dies? I really believe its play in the seat adjuster.

 

[427mach1]

I've had the same problem with Winchester 55 grain FMJBT and concluded that it inconsistencies in the shape of the bullet. I was getting +/0.004" variation in overall length. I've since purchased Hornady's version of the same bullet but have not yet loaded any up.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

I've experienced a few inconsistencies over the years w/ Lee dies, and there are three things that come to mind:

Bullet seaters I'm familiar w/ usually work based on contact w/ the bullet somewhere in the ogive area. So they seat the bullet to a given level at that point. When using soft point bullets, the points can get dinged, so when you measure the overall length, you'll get variances. You can measure some bullets before loading them to get an idea of how big a range to expect.

There ARE measuring devices from a couple of mfrs designed to measure on a fixed reference point of the bullet to get past this little problem. Names escape me right this minute, but it seems Sinclair might be one... someone here can help us out on these tools.

I load some of my rifle ammo w/ jacketed bullets, then load some of the same caliber w/ lead. If I forget to clean the die before my next jacketed session, there may be lube (I use Lee Liquid Alox which is bad about this!) in the seating plug. Normally, taking the die apart and cleaning it well completely minimizes the problem. A spot of oil on the O-ring and threads (TINY spot!) doesn't hurt.

Some bullet designs just work better w/ a particular factory seating plug than others. At one time, Lee offered a service to custom fit a seating plug to your bullet. It wasn't too spendy, involved sending 'em a couple of bullets and a short wait. Dunno if they still do this, but it might be worth contacting Lee to see if you plan on using a lot of that bullet which is problematic.

There are probably other things I haven't experienced, or did but "misread", so these are just starters!

Rick C

 

[modrifle3]

I tried a few with the rcbs dies today. Wow what a waste of money. Those dies crushed the shoulder of every case I put into it, whether .223 or 5.56. Don't know what is going on. Back to lee dies for sizing.

 

[modrifle3]

I am also using the rcbs shell holder, but I am so pissed. These are supposed to be the "wonder" die.

 

[modrifle3]

I tried them cammed not cammed over unless I back them out it buckles the shoulder.

 

[modrifle3]

My 15 year old lee sized works perfect.

 

[Mobuck]

madrifle3,
Please give more info on the "crushed shoulder" comment. Is the neck telescoped into the case collapsing the neck/shoulder junction? The de-cap/neck expand plug is the correct size?
The only time I've seen a non-defective sizing die "crush the shoulder" (except in a reforming operation)was if the de-capping stem was too high in the die. In this case it would not punch out the spent primer either.

 

[Enigma]

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/2012/12/full-length-sizing-die-set-up-tip-from-sinclair-international/

 

[modrifle3]

It is compressing the shoulder taper to point it is wrinkling the shoulder. I removed the expanded ball and got the same result. I called rcbs and they said to send it back and they will send out a new one. The interior dimensions are too small.

 

[gramps]

madrifle3,
Please give more info on the "crushed shoulder" comment. Is the neck telescoped into the case collapsing the neck/shoulder junction? The de-cap/neck expand plug is the correct size?
The only time I've seen a non-defective sizing die "crush the shoulder" (except in a reforming operation)was if the de-capping stem was too high in the die. In this case it would not punch out the spent primer either.

Mobuck, my Lee .223 dies won't punch out the spent primer, and did buckle a couple of cases. The decapper gets pushed up, and has to be reset. The primers are crimped. I haven't been able to reload any!
gramps

 

[modrifle3]

I have decapped 1000s of military brass with lee dies but you have to really torque the decap rod collet down tight.

 

[modrifle3]

So after sending the die back to rcbs the cs rep tells me I am lubing my cases wrong. I told him he was full of it because I bought a regular fl set and a second sb set and what do you know, perfect cases. Not a single issue during a 200 plus case sizing session. This leaves me none impressed with rcbs. I must say I love both sets that function correctly.

So I think I will setup two plates, one with a lee fcd, which I love, and one with the rcbs taper crimp. I always size and decap single stage and hand prime. I mostly load noslar ballistic tip 50 grain bullets and 55 grain fmj. Now I can set up for both and just switch plates as I load fmj kinda short and ballistic tips at max AOL. I also think the ballistic tips would benefit from a taper crimp as they do not have a crimp ring.

 

[xtratoy]

On my LEE 260 Rem seating die stem I drilled the inside of the seater to a bigger/deeper size so that the nose of the bullet would not bottom out in the seater. Now the seater makes contact down on the ogive and bullets are seated consistently. I hope this makes sense. This is the only LEE die that I have had to alter for this reason.
The Sinclair hex nut comparators are handy to have on hand while setting up a cartridge for a specific seating depth. http://www.sinclairintl.com/reloading-equipment/measuring-tools/bullet-comparators/sinclair-hex-style-bullet-comparators-prod34262.aspx

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Coupla updates to my earlier post:

According to Lee's website a few days ago, they've suspended any "custom" work, such as fitting bullet seating plugs, until they get past all the production demands we've seen for the last year.

And their Universal Decapping Die makes short work of those crimped primers. Used one to deprime several hundred .223/5.56 cases recently before cleaning, and it didn't even seem like any of 'em were crimped (about 2/3 were!)

Rick C

 

[gramps]

Rick I got one of the universal decapper dies and my problems with the crimps dissolved. Thanks.
gramps

 

[GasGuzzler]

their Universal Decapping Die makes short work of those crimped primers. Used one to deprime several hundred .223/5.56 cases recently before cleaning
Rick C

Gotta agree with Rick here for sure. I have their universal decap on my small single stage Lee that has a short arm and less leverage (compared to the turret press) but I ran 340 crimped military 5.56 and about 180 laquered .44 mags through it really fast. Makes all the sizing step easier. If the sizing die doesn't work correctly the case won't fit well in the seater die right? I'm grasping at straws....

 

[Mobuck]

OK, Two things going on here.
Those "wrinkles" in the shoulder are most likely lube dents as the RCBS tech suggested. The die's vent may have been plugged or maybe just couldn't vent all the excess lube. It happens, consider it a learning event and either use less lube or a thinner lube. I use Midway spray case lube and end up with it running down the outside of the die as it bleeds off. I get occasional lube dents which I accept in return for fewer stuck cases. I process thousands of cases per session.
The problem with LEE dies and really tough crimped primers is well known. Completely degrease the decapping stem and collet. Put some grease or Never Seize on the threads on the outside of the collet and reassemble being VERY careful not to get any lube on the stem. Crank the collet down TIGHT. I use the correct size end wrenches and basically pull the short one(collet) as hard as my bony fingers will allow. This is what it takes for mine to work properly. The next step is to rough up the stem and inside of collet with some abrasive paper/cloth to give more "bite".
Some lots/brands of brass has undersized/off center flash holes. I've found this mostly on foreign brass but some lots of military shows this problem, also. There's not much you can do about this and continued attempts to punch primers from this stuff will damage the decap pin.

 

[gramps]

Thanks Mobuck!
gramps

 

[Rick Courtright]

OK, Two things going on here.
Those "wrinkles" in the shoulder are most likely lube dents as the RCBS tech suggested. The die's vent may have been plugged or maybe just couldn't vent all the excess lube.

Hi,

I'm new to the .223: previously my rifle experience was limited to tons of .30 cal stuff from .30-30 thru a couple of military calibers to the .30-06. One of the very first things I learned about this "small" case is how little lube it takes! I'd never dented a case before, but was getting dents in .223 cases kinda regular. I'd always given the neck of the larger cases "just a touch" of lube (I use the Lee) and never had problems. But the small case didn't like that.

Being very careful to get only the tiniest "swipe" of the Lee lube on the body area, no closer than 1/4" or so to the shoulder, the problem went away. Using Lee dies, I make sure to stick a pin thru the vent hole before starting, too. If I can "see" any of the Lee lube on the brass, that's almost too much!

On the collet, I find two bits of advice, and they conflict some. First is from the little instruction folder in the die set that says to really crank it down tight w/ appropriate sized wrenches, which is what I've done in the past, and I can pop out crimped primers just fine. Haven't tried Mobuck's anti-seize advice yet but have lubed the threads w/ a spot of oil. So far, so good.

Then recently I was looking thru the Lee website and somewhere in a "help" section they talk about die adjustment. They suggest adjusting it a tiny bit looser so maybe up to 10% of your crimped primers would cause the depriming stem to slide up. That would drive ME nuts, so I stick w/ the "really tight" advice...

Even so, the deprime only die is a godsend...

Rick C