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Mobuck

Hawkeye
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City & State/Province
missouri
I'm having problems with my electric service after it started raining again. I'd noticed at times the incandescent bulbs would vary in brightness but maybe a week ago, I also noticed my little bedroom fan varying speed. When I checked the voltage, it was running from 109 to 135. We had the REC come out to look for a problem and they replaced a ground strap from the main lines to my meter pole about 10AM.
Things seemed OK until about 6 PM when the flicker returned. I checked the voltage and it was hitting 140 at times so I shut down what I could and called the REC to come back. Of course, by the time the linemen arrived, voltage was running right on the 122-127 mark and all I got was comments about using extension cords instead of burying lines to every spot I needed power and the use of split nuts for connecting wires. Lineman said it was "my problem" since he checked the voltage at the meter and it was fine. I told him I was going to start taking pictures of my volt meter when I got these spikes but he said that wasn't good enough even though when checked side by side there was only 2 volts difference between his "certified" meter and mine.
I think I have a bad transformer but lineman says it's my DIY wiring. HMMM, hadn't been a problem for a decade and it isn't a low voltage issue so doesn't seem to me it's a connection issue. The other quandary is the security light doesn't run through the meter or my entrance wiring--it is owned and serviced by the REC yet it is pulsing with the voltage fluctuation as well.
I know AC current can be a head scratcher at times but I'm getting worried about this. Three freezers full of food, computers that I need for work, all sorts of devices that could be damaged vs the "keep an eye on it and let us know" attitude of the provider. I think I'll go in today and try to talk to the line superintendent and see if he can give me a better answer.
 
I do not understand the fluctuations you are getting. DIY wiring has nothing to do with
that as far as I know. You either have good connections or you do not! IMHO there is
a malfunctioning transformer. Of course that cost money! These spikes you are getting
are NOT good for your appliances or electronics. You may need to hire a licensed
electrician to verify everything on your end is fine. Good luck power co. can be stubborn.
Not My Problem they'll tell you. ps
 
PS,That's my thoughts also. I'm still going by the office and see what the superintendent has to say but most likely, I'm going to be out an electrician's charge before I get this resolved.
 
and then there's this
Re: High voltage from bad neutral?
Utilities provide 240 volts, (I have never seen 220 as laymen refer to it). To supply lower power loads they center tap the secondary winding in the utility transformer. This makes it possible to derive two legs of 120 volts each, (not 110 as laymen always refer to it). From the three conductors run to your house your electrician can derive 240 volts across the two hot legs, or 120 volts from either of the two hot legs to the centertaped neutral. As this neutral connects to the centertap in transformer, earth driven ground rod at the power pole or ground level transformer, and the grounded leg of the higher voltage primary leads supplying the transformer, it is called the grounded conductor. This conductor is also connected to earth at one point in the house, or other building.

Should this grounded or neutral conductor fail, the circuits on one hot leg become series paired with the other hot leg. As resistance is unlikely to be balanced, the side with the greatest resistance will get the biggest share of the voltage.

Imagine two 60 watt light bulbs each connected to one leg of the 240 volt supply, and the neutral, or grounded conductor. Each works fine. Should a connection fail on the centertapped neutral, the perfectly balanced 120 volt bulbs now in series will evenly divide the 240 volts. No change in voltage at either bulb.

Changing this scenario by substituting a 25 watt bulb for one of the above mentioned bulbs, they work fine with the neutral intact, when it fails they become a series circuit sharing 240 volts as resistance is not in balance, voltage isn't either. the 25 watt bulb resists the flow of electricity more than the 60 watt. It will get the greater share of 240 volts. It woll quickly burn out, breaking the circuit. Both bulbs go dark, only one is burned out.

Very good grounding can eliminate the damage we see when a neutral fails. Equipment grounding conductors must not be confused with grounded conductors.
 
More thoughts. This situation happens most often before 9AM or after 6PM when others on this line are using power. Beginning to wonder if the mainline neutral is faulty. That would cause my individual grounding rods to carry the full load vs just as a safety.
 
Bad insulation on one of the service entrance lines.....look any where trees may have
rubbed it.
If you check both "hots" to the neutral, one will be high and the other low about
equal amounts from the nominal 120 volts.
The issue can be anywhere between the transformer and your house.
Dave
 
When you speak to a supervisor,, be polite,,, yet allow how you are willing to document these spikes,,! Just in case you have a fire, a loss of equipment, food etc,,, for your lawyers to use in the lawsuit for putting yourself or others in life threatening dangers. When you can say you are willing to have your meter tested & calibrated,,, as well as documenting (use video, not just pictures,) the spikes etc,,, along with heavy emphasis on the potential of a fire,,,, you may get better results.

And allow, politely,,, how you will be willing to get an independent electrician to check things,,, but if they find a problem on their end,, you will be sending them the bill for all the expenses.
 
I would pay for the advice of a local professional licensed electrician. Hopefully he'll agree with you and that's further ammo to hit the REC with.
 
It's a shame the provider's tech did the bare minimum and said it was your problem. I'm sure he could've at least left a meter on overnight to record min/max voltages. :roll: :x
 
Your situation sounds much like the one my cousin had. The city she lives in owns the utilities, and she kept reporting the problems. After about the third time out they told her it had to be in her house and that they would not come back until she had an electrician go over her wiring completely. When the problem started up again, she called another cousin of ours -- the Mayor. That very afternoon the crew found a broken insulator 1/2 a block away from her house, replaced it, and it's been over a year since the last flicker.

Funny how that stuff works, huh?
 
I went in this morning and talked to the line superintendent(he's responsible for service line maintenance). I know the guy and we had a calm and informative discussion of the possible problems. A truck will be here as soon as he is able to schedule but not later than tomorrow morning to install a new and bigger transformer, re-splice all the lines at the meter pole, and double check the neutral connection to the main line.
I told him I was prepared to use a time and date stamp digital camera to document the readings I was getting. He thought that was good and removed any doubt of what and when this was happening.
I also thought that three houses on this 6 customer line have done or are in the process of doing major repairs from the horrendous wind and hail storm we had in May. Now wondering if other connections have been disrupted w/o anyone really noticing.
 
Hey Mobuck. Maybe you can explain something to me regarding voltage nomenclature.

On 120 I sometimes see stuff marked 120 or 115 or 110. I see the same sort of thing on 240. IE. 240, 230 or 220. Any idea why the differences?

I also see some DC stuff that will have a rating line 9 to 15 volts DC.

Never was too concerned about it, but it is curious.
 
I had an issue some years back. My neighbor was a welder and when he struck an are our lights would dim. We all got pretty used to it and just ignored it.

Then my other neighbor installed a sodium vapor light on a motion sensor. Really weird stuff started to happen. My dryer would shut off. Several TV's in the neighborhood were doing the same. Finally a line crew was out working on an entirely different problem and I mentioned it to them.

The guys did some checking and saw the problem right off. My entire block had exactly one transformer. Well back in the 50's when our houses were built that was plenty. In the early 2000's not so much.

The guys made a report and shortly thereafter a total of four transformers were installed. No more dimming lights, or TV's shutting down.

I've got to say that I've only had one problem with a utility worker, and it was actually my neighbor who had it. I just fixed it and gave the gas company hell about it. But that's another story.
 
I have to agree... bad neutral or something for sure going on at the transformer... there is no way the higher voltage fluctuation can be on your side of the meter.... about all you can do is create low voltage with either too thin or too long of a line. Keep in mind you can still get 'voltage' even with out the neutral connected.... your house can use the ground or a utility line to act as a neutral. This is not a good way to get it.
 
Jeepnik,
There are others likely more qualified than I to explain AC power. Power comes out of the transformer @240 volts and is split between the two legs @120 volts. 110 or 115 are common references to the 120 volt.
I spent 15 minutes looking at the computer records of the power passing through my meter. There's some variance but not far off normal. The problem is the split voltage and I'm hoping the new transformer fixes that.
FWIW the problem didn't show up this evening(yet anyway) and the constant voltage fluctuation has abated. I watched my volt meter for 2 minutes and it only changed by 0.2 volts versus 10+ volts last night. There were truck tracks in the gravel road so REC may have been out checking the rest of the line between my place and the highway and maybe found and fixed another problem.
 
Had a similar problem on my daughter's house that only occurred when it rained.

Found the problem one night when I was in her back yard looking at the service drop from the transformer to the house.

The service drop conductors were very old (original to a 1962 house?) and the insulation was dry rotted and cracked.

Noticed little blue sparks occurring between the cracks in the "hot" wires and the messenger wire (bare silver colored wire).

She had the power company come out and replace the drops, problem solved.

As far as electrical appliances being mark with different voltages......

Appliances are designed to operate at plus or minus 10% of the nameplate voltage rating.

So an appliance marked 120 volt will operate anywhere between 108 volts and 132 volts.

Low voltage can be as detrimental as high voltage.
 
Had you exact problem. A tree had rubbed through the neutral outside the house. Some lights dim some lights real bright. Fluctuated by the minute. Took out my fridge, TV and computer.
 
Mo
As stated prior it will very likely be a NEUTRAL wire burning or shorting out
If overhead service it can be rubbing (shorting) which will cause the spike
That IS the utilities problem

Spiking to 140 volts on one leg is dangerous not only in burning out light bulbs but also microwave & more serious air conditioner compressor

It needs attention ASAP

In reference to 220 volt, 230 volt 240 volt
That is all the same general term in reference to 2 poles of power

Using your meter the closest & most nominal is 240 volts - so that is the more correct voltage to speak of

120 volt - 240 volt & used all over the USA
 
Customer two years ago complained that when she ran her washing machine (120volts) the lights in the house dimmed but when she ran her dryer (240) nothing happened... her electrician did not have a clue... I walked around the house (actually on the roof) and looked down at the over head feed to her meter and the squirrels had chewed almost completely through the bare neutral feed line.
 
Jeepnik said:
Hey Mobuck. Maybe you can explain something to me regarding voltage nomenclature.

On 120 I sometimes see stuff marked 120 or 115 or 110. I see the same sort of thing on 240. IE. 240, 230 or 220. Any idea why the differences?

I also see some DC stuff that will have a rating line 9 to 15 volts DC.

Never was too concerned about it, but it is curious.
Click to expand...

DC voltages can/will be whatever they were designed to operate. Your cptr p.s. provides +5,-5,+12,-12 and probably other voltages. The various components inside run on one or more of those voltages. The +5 will have the largest current rating because most stuff in there runs on that.
 
I have seen power companies use a recording device that hooks up to your line and records on a graph what happens. If left on for 24 to 48 hours it should show what is taking place. To just arbitrarily replace the transformer and reconnect all the connections seems like a poor replacement for troubleshooting the cause of the problem. They may or may not be lucky enough to eliminate the source of the problem with that course of action. It is like replacing the battery, then the alternator, then the switches in a car to get the headlights to work. You get a lot of new parts and it my cure the problem, but it may not.
If you have any friends with an infra-red camera or visual device you could look at all the connections on your side and see if there are any hot spots. Loose connections are always a source of heat.
The problem you described could be a number of things so you have to keep an open mind when troubleshooting. The thing that stands out is the yard light that is connected on the line side of the meter. If I was a lineman troubleshooting this, that would be a red flag. But that does not mean it is not something other than the transformer.
If you have had recent storms in your area, the power company is likely super busy with repairs and brushed you off as a low priority. You did good to go talk to someone higher up.
 
"I have seen power companies use a recording device that hooks up to your line and records on a graph what happens. If left on for 24 to 48 hours it should show what is taking place."
Ameran UE did that when I was having computer problems at my office. They determined that middle of the night power surges were the culprit and replaced the transformer solving the problems.
 
If you do not have a UPS for your computers, this is the time to buy one (or more) ASAP. Fluctuations in power will kill non laptops in short order.
https://www.howtogeek.com/161479/how-to-select-a-battery-backup-for-your-computer/

good observation on your part;
I also thought that three houses on this 6 customer line have done or are in the process of doing major repairs from the horrendous wind and hail storm we had in May. Now wondering if other connections have been disrupted w/o anyone really noticing.

Trouble in "the neighborhood" all on the same side of a transformer is a indication of looking for damage on all the wiring. I have had contractors dig up grounding probes and toss them aside when doing work. That was easy troubleshooting for me once the customer told me about the addition they were doing. Storm damage can sometimes be seen easily when walking a complete line looking carefully.

Since you seem like you are willing to plug in a meter, why not buy a recording meter. This meter "may" be less than a service call from an electrician and you will have it for years instead of a single visit.

http://support.fluke.com/find-sales/Download/Asset/3325448_6006_ENG_C_W.PDF

https://www.fluke-direct.com/product/fluke-289-true-rms-industrial-logging-multimeter
 
Jeepnik said:
Hey Mobuck. Maybe you can explain something to me regarding voltage nomenclature.

On 120 I sometimes see stuff marked 120 or 115 or 110. I see the same sort of thing on 240. IE. 240, 230 or 220. Any idea why the differences?

I also see some DC stuff that will have a rating line 9 to 15 volts DC.

Never was too concerned about it, but it is curious.
Click to expand...

In Canada the domestic voltage is 120/240 volt in the US it's 115/230 volt the equipment is rated for either voltages so the apliances will work in both countries. With a broken neutral condition you will get a very low voltage on one hot conductor ex 80-90 volts and on the other leg 150 and higher voltage which will play havoc on electronics and appliances.

Harv journeyman electrician :)
 
"In Canada the domestic voltage is 120/240 volt in the US it's 115/230 volt"

The electric cooperative supervisor stated "we'd like to see our delivery in the 235-245 volt range regardless of load".
 
And then we have the stuff used elsewhere in the world. In Spain we had 220v 50 htz. If you wanted to use any US electricals you had to have a transformer.

I had a US frig. It required a massive transformer. But it did amaze the locals by it's size. They still shopped daily and had small refrigerators and very few freezers.
 
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