Black SR9, Pictures and peening

[cagedodger]

Just had one of those duh moments....When you fire the gun, and the slide starts to move, the force is applied against the slide in the back of the chamber, and then transferred to the guidespring....then the guidespring pushes on the barrel rocking it back in the camblock, dropping it out of the way. If there is any problem in the camblock or the pivoting mechanism in the barrel to camblock "joint" there could be serious timing issues. If the barrel was not allowed to pivot the slide would slam into the chamber block and sieze against its slope at some point, rendering the gun useless.

The problem is there not in the barrel hood or chamber block whichever we call it....if it was there we would see problems further up the lines of the block itself as it goes underneath the slide. We just see the issue on the leading edge of the block itself leading me to think its a "timing" issue on the START of the recoil process NOT returning to battery position.

Josh

I think you are on to something here. It seems to be a timing issue at the start of the action cycling. If that is the case, you should see some peening to a certain point and then no further as the parts beat each other to the needed shape to make the timing work. Once they reach that point, the barrel will be able to tip out of the way without being struck by the rearward moving slide. Way to go, Josh.

Cage

 

[mekender]

im gonna have a look at mine here again in a few minutes... what i think is happening is that the barrel isnt moving backwards as quickly as the slide is in the first 2 thousands of a second after the round is fired... in theory, the barrel should move back a fraction of a second before the slide does, giving it time to get out of the way of the slide... im wondering if the mechanisms that cause the barrel to tilt arent machined too tightly allowing the process to happen with more resistance than it should...

 

[JohnKSa]

Dunno where some of you guys have gotten your ideas about how a locked breech recoil operated pistol works, but they are flawed.

The slide is moved backward by the recoil force against the breechface. The barrel is locked to the slide and is therefore moved backwards along with the slide until the unlocking mechanism tilts the rear of the barrel downward and unlocks the two, freeing the slide to continue moving backwards for the rest of the ejection cycle.

You can keep flailing for an explanation if you like, but it's not as if I'm guessing at this. If you prefer someone else to explain it, read the section in your manual entitled "Action". At least it's in the P-Series manuals, don't know if that carried over the SR9 manuals. I'd download one to check, but that part of Ruger's website seems to be gefurkt at the moment.

Or you can read it here: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg207-e.htm

"Ruger SR9 pistol is short-recoil operated, locked breech semiautomatic that uses modified Browning-type locking with tipping barrel. barrel locks into slide by single large lug that engages ejection window; locking and unlocking is controlled by the cam-shaped projection below the barrel chamber. "

In this case, the locking surface is the surface being peened.

 

[mekender]

just had a look and yeah you are correct... it looks like the barrel isnt tilting out of the way quick enough... i dont know if that might mean that the angle on the "cam-shaped projection" is off by a few mm's or so... or if the area that it engages isnt correct... i am no firearms expert, so ill leave that to the pros

 

[poncaguy]

Mine was a decocker............no safety. I read my owners manual, never dry fired without mag either. But cleaned the rear sight anyway so I didn't have to worry about someone else doing it.............

 

[jhearne]

Dunno where some of you guys have gotten your ideas about how a locked breech recoil operated pistol works, but they are flawed.

The slide is moved backward by the recoil force against the breechface. The barrel is locked to the slide and is therefore moved backwards along with the slide until the unlocking mechanism tilts the rear of the barrel downward and unlocks the two, freeing the slide to continue moving backwards for the rest of the ejection cycle.

You can keep flailing for an explanation if you like, but it's not as if I'm guessing at this. If you prefer someone else to explain it, read the section in your manual entitled "Action". At least it's in the P-Series manuals, don't know if that carried over the SR9 manuals. I'd download one to check, but that part of Ruger's website seems to be gefurkt at the moment.

Or you can read it here: http://world.guns.ru/handguns/hg207-e.htm

"Ruger SR9 pistol is short-recoil operated, locked breech semiautomatic that uses modified Browning-type locking with tipping barrel. barrel locks into slide by single large lug that engages ejection window; locking and unlocking is controlled by the cam-shaped projection below the barrel chamber. "

In this case, the locking surface is the surface being peened.

I'm not trying to disagree with what you're saying John, if what you're saying is pointed my way, I took your explanation and ran with it some....We are both beating around the same bush here I think. I totally agree with what your saying, the main difference is what terms we are using, mine are undoubtedly jibberish while yours are more spot on, I just couldn't for the life of me remember the proper terms. 2 hammers one nail, we are both fighting to hit it lol.

Josh

 

[Blackhawk47]

just had a look and yeah you are correct... it looks like the barrel isnt tilting out of the way quick enough... i dont know if that might mean that the angle on the "cam-shaped projection" is off by a few mm's or so... or if the area that it engages isnt correct... i am no firearms expert, so ill leave that to the pros

No this is not an angled blow it is straight on, from top to bottem of the front lip even to the point of hitting the top of the barrel. Also if you look at the pictures I supplied the second set with the new barrel you can see the full outline of the slide. The area between the slide and the barrel front chamber lip always has clearance maybe 001 to .002. After looking at this problem I think three things are going on that is causing this much damage. The slide is going backward (the barrle should be camming down at this point but it does not ) the barrel is remaining locked for a few micro seconds which allows it and the slide to collide fist then the barrel cams down

 

[jhearne]

But as soon as ANY force is applied to the slide the barrel should start to cam and unlock all at the same time. Maybe there is too much slack in the guide spring, making it not apply enough force to activate the cam action then allow the slide to move.

Josh

 

[poncaguy]

The barrel has a lot of up and down slack also..............

 

[RonS]

Thank you John!

 

[mekender]

just had a look and yeah you are correct... it looks like the barrel isnt tilting out of the way quick enough... i dont know if that might mean that the angle on the "cam-shaped projection" is off by a few mm's or so... or if the area that it engages isnt correct... i am no firearms expert, so ill leave that to the pros

No this is not an angled blow it is straight on, from top to bottem of the front lip even to the point of hitting the top of the barrel. Also if you look at the pictures I supplied the second set with the new barrel you can see the full outline of the slide. The area between the slide and the barrel front chamber lip always has clearance maybe 001 to .002. After looking at this problem I think three things are going on that is causing this much damage. The slide is going backward (the barrel should be camming down at this point but it does not ) the barrel is remaining locked for a few micro seconds which allows it and the slide to collide fist then the barrel cams down

yeah i think you are about right... the damage is coming from a straight on hit, not from an angle... so basically the slide is slamming up against the top of the block and causing the damage

 

[Pops 1]

I know I will get flamed, but it looks like the SR9 is having more teething problems than the P345. Pops

 

[desertrat]

I know I will get flamed, but it looks like the PR9 is having more teething problems than the P345. Pops

You're not "trashing" the SR9, just making an observation so no reason why anyone would "flame" you for that.

 

[plastikguy]

shot in the dark here probally not helpful at all but has anyone tried to relieve the area that is peening as in maybe takeing a dremel or a pencil grinder to it, and maybe adding some draft.

 

[Whirlwind06]

shot in the dark here probally not helpful at all but has anyone tried to relieve the area that is peening as in maybe takeing a dremel or a pencil grinder to it, and maybe adding some draft.

These are brand new guns. I would not mess with it. Let Ruger fix it.

 

[JohnKSa]

...so basically the slide is slamming up against the top of the block and causing the damage...

The slide is SUPPOSED to bear against the barrel at this point. It is the locking surface between the barrel and slide that is essential to normal (and safe) operation in this type of pistol.

The metal is either too soft, or there is too much clearance initially, or, more likely, it's a combination of the two.

shot in the dark here probally not helpful at all but has anyone tried to relieve the area that is peening as in maybe takeing a dremel or a pencil grinder to it, and maybe adding some draft.

All right, ENOUGH!

Do NOT attempt to relieve this area on your pistol!

Do NOT attempt to prevent slide/barrel interaction at the point where the peening is taking place.

The locking action of the barrel and slide is ESSENTIAL to safe operation. If you remove enough material in this area it will turn the gun into a straight blowback from a locked breech gun, resulting in early opening and ruptured cases--a very unsafe condition.

 

[RonS]

If you had a rifle and opened the bolt and the locking lugs were deforned and battered like that would you continue to shoot it?

 

[Blackhawk47]

If you had a rifle and opened the bolt and the locking lugs were deforned and battered like that would you continue to shoot it?

Totally different, the locking lugs on a rifle keep the bolt from moving backward and contain many thousands of psi. If rifle bolt locking lugs became deformed at that moment they would more then likely shear possibly causing bodily injury and your rifle would be trash.

Where this peening problem is very little locking and containing of pressure, if any, takes places there. Upon firing a slight kiss, maybe, of the slide and front chamber hood lip takes place, but if too much contact takes place at this point you have peening, (Too much contact tells me the pistol is out of tolerance)

Would I shoot a pistol with type of problem NO. Why? Because I do not know the cause, it could soft metal (which might cause a blow-up) could be a bent slide or it could be something that would totally destroy the pistol and I don't want that

Now more of my opinions and observations.

If you take the slide off a pistol designed like the SR9 with the barrel and recoil spring in place the barrel is held tightly in place, take the recoil spring out of the equation the barrel just falls down and away just like being cammed upon firing. (nothing lock in place that I can see) The locking lug, if you want to call it that, (I would call it a guide lug) on these type of pistols is on the rear top of the barrel and it slips into a frame raceway above the breach face.

 

[JohnKSa]

take the recoil spring out of the equation the barrel just falls down and away just like being cammed upon firing. (nothing lock in place that I can see)

Yes, of course if you take the slide/barrel out of the gun, there's nothing holding them together. When you put the gun together (as it will be when it's fired) the barrel is held in the up/locked position by the locking block installed in the frame until there is sufficient rearward travel for the barrel to cam downwards on the ramp of the locking block and unlock.

In other words, the locking surfaces of the slide/barrel (where the peening is happening) are held in engagement by the locking block until the slide has moved backward enough for them to safely unlock as determined by the slope of the ramps on the locking block & the underside of the barrel.

Where this peening problem is very little locking and containing of pressure, if any, takes places there.

What locking action there is between the slide and barrel takes place there. The locking surface on this pistol prevents the slide and barrel from opening too early (prevents the slide and barrel from simply moving apart until the barrel is cammed downward) and (in conjunction with the cartridge case) contains many thousands of psi (around 35,000 if you want an exact number). If the locking surface fails or is battered out of shape sufficiently, the gun will open early and the case will rupture. While it is true that the force on the locking surface is dependent on slide momentum and not directly on chamber pressure, the surface is performing a very important function which should not be discounted.

 

[Blackhawk47]

Ok you win!!!!!! I understand it now.

All I know I talked with Ruger yesterday at 330pm CST explained my problem, they were great people to talk with, at 0930AM this morning I had UPS at my door with a prepaid shipping label, Ruger sent it over night, by 1100 am my SR9 was at UPS.

You cant ask for better customer service then that........