Bill Ruger designed firearms?

[GammaRay]

I have been hijacked :twisted:
Respectfully please start your own thread.

 

[Blackmore]

you might not like his spelling, but 'blackmore' is right.........he copied a LOT and was a "user", wasted nothing of his or of 'others'...........

I NEVER said that, only quoted others and then sat back to enjoy the scrum.

If anything I fall somewhere in the middle - probably closer to the "genius" side. He built the company up well enough so that even after his death, his design philosophy has resulted in a stock price over 40 and a 500K gun backlog.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy

I too heartily recommend the book Ruger and His Guns.

Out of respect for the wishes of the Original Poster, I have started a new thread to continue the discussion about Bill Ruger and his designs.

http://www.rugerforum.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=143179

Perhaps others could respect his wishes and continue the discussion there.

 

[Stoots]

I agree with the above posters; Bill Ruger was brilliant in many ways.

As a lover of the ROA, I contend that that design alone was a game-changer when it came to cap and ball revolvers.

:wink:

 

[ElrodCod]

COPIER?


And just what gun did he copy when he designed the Standard and MK-I pistol. Not only was it a new design with stationary sights, that didn't move with the movement of the bolt, but he designed most of the jigs that was used to manufacture this gun. As for his revolvers, Single-Six and such. Yes it looked lake a colt but that is where it stopped. The gun used coiled springs a complete one piece grip frame, and a internal firing pin which allows the owner of this fine revolver to dry fire it. Oh by the way Colt didn't design it's single action to fire a .22 but if they did the firing pin on the hammer of the colt would not let you dry fire it. And yes this firing pin on the hammer was prone to break, unlike Ruger's internal firing pin. And yes I know after Ruger came out with their .22 then colt copied Ruger and came out with the Scout, with the one piece grip frame.

Now lets look at the 10-22. With that magazine what gun did he copy? I can't think of one. Yes it looks like a M-one carbine, but looks only.

Although I hate the conversion kit, look at what went into that design. It takes an Old Model Ruger and with out doing any machining on the frame turns it into a safe revolver that one can carry 6 rounds without danger of it firing when dropped on it's hammer. And it only cost a few dollars to do. And when he returns the old parts the gun can be returned to it's original state for the collector. Just that design alone makes him a design genius.

Everything that you say that he copied he copied in looks only, and he re-designed it to be a better operating firearm. Just look at all the guns that are 30, 40, 50, and 60 years old that are going strong today. There are too many gun writers and firearm experts, you know people that know what they are talking about, people that make a living in the firearms industry that have called him a "DESIGN GENIUS"

COPIER HE'S NOT, GENIUS HE WAS :roll:

Sorry, the concept was already done.

He may have tweeked ( Hey, I got your spell check right here! ) the design but he copied many guns. He copied Colt single action revolvers, the Ruger No.1 single shot is a copy of the farquharson rifle. the Red label shotgun is a copy of the browning superposed shotgun, the Mini 14 is a scaled down copy of a M-14, the Ruger 77 is a copy of the 98 Mauser. The 10/22 has a couple of interesting features like the rotary magazine and the way the barrel is attached to the receiver but the concept is a Browning design as is any semi-auto pistol with a reciprocating slide and tilting barrel. All of these made Bill Ruger a great engineer but a firearms genious he was not. The Ruger company has followed his legacy with their current offerings by ripping off Kel-Tec and Walther.

 

[flatgate]

I have been hijacked :twisted:
Respectfully please start your own thread.

Hah! That there's funny! This IS Ruger Forum, ain't it? This thread is discussing Mr. Wm. B. Ruger and his Company, eh?

Nah, you ain't been hijacked, you're being welcomed to Ruger Forum.

flatgate

 

[GammaRay]

I am looking for specific information here so I would like to stay on topic. That said, I am now searching for the best deal on R.L.Wilson's Ruger and His Guns. Hope to have the book in a week or so. Thanks again for the book sugestions.

 

[w5lx]

I am now searching for the best deal on R.L.Wilson's Ruger and His Guns. Hope to have the book in a week or so.

You won't find a better deal than this: It's the most informative book on Rugers that I have read.

http://www.amazon.com/Ruger-His-Guns-History-Firearms/dp/0785821031/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1331322180&sr=8-1

 

[NH Rugerman]

....no Sirree, that 50,000 was NOT Bills........................and HIS way.......

And he used OTHER people's money to make a fortune...add Financial Genius to my post above..... :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: \

Oh yeah...and it was his company so it was HIS way...so what...don't like it , don't work for him....

As far as being star struck...I speak to many of his employees who worked for him for 20+ years who agree he could be tough to work with but that they respected him immensely, do you understand WHY he built a factory in NEWPORT, NH????? Because he was a genius....he knew what he needed to do to be successful and he knew where the labor was to get it done....He is gone now...but he was a tough SOB...why is that so bad? Seems like we could use a tough SOB in Washington like WBR to staighten out this country of ours.... 8) 8) 8)

 

[street]

COPIER?


And just what gun did he copy when he designed the Standard and MK-I pistol. Not only was it a new design with stationary sights, that didn't move with the movement of the bolt, but he designed most of the jigs that was used to manufacture this gun. As for his revolvers, Single-Six and such. Yes it looked lake a colt but that is where it stopped. The gun used coiled springs a complete one piece grip frame, and a internal firing pin which allows the owner of this fine revolver to dry fire it. Oh by the way Colt didn't design it's single action to fire a .22 but if they did the firing pin on the hammer of the colt would not let you dry fire it. And yes this firing pin on the hammer was prone to break, unlike Ruger's internal firing pin. And yes I know after Ruger came out with their .22 then colt copied Ruger and came out with the Scout, with the one piece grip frame.

Now lets look at the 10-22. With that magazine what gun did he copy? I can't think of one. Yes it looks like a M-one carbine, but looks only.

Although I hate the conversion kit, look at what went into that design. It takes an Old Model Ruger and with out doing any machining on the frame turns it into a safe revolver that one can carry 6 rounds without danger of it firing when dropped on it's hammer. And it only cost a few dollars to do. And when he returns the old parts the gun can be returned to it's original state for the collector. Just that design alone makes him a design genius.

Everything that you say that he copied he copied in looks only, and he re-designed it to be a better operating firearm. Just look at all the guns that are 30, 40, 50, and 60 years old that are going strong today. There are too many gun writers and firearm experts, you know people that know what they are talking about, people that make a living in the firearms industry that have called him a "DESIGN GENIUS"

COPIER HE'S NOT, GENIUS HE WAS :roll:

Sorry, the concept was already done.

He may have tweeked ( Hey, I got your spell check right here! ) the design but he copied many guns. He copied Colt single action revolvers, the Ruger No.1 single shot is a copy of the farquharson rifle. the Red label shotgun is a copy of the browning superposed shotgun, the Mini 14 is a scaled down copy of a M-14, the Ruger 77 is a copy of the 98 Mauser. The 10/22 has a couple of interesting features like the rotary magazine and the way the barrel is attached to the receiver but the concept is a Browning design as is any semi-auto pistol with a reciprocating slide and tilting barrel. All of these made Bill Ruger a great engineer but a firearms genious he was not. The Ruger company has followed his legacy with their current offerings by ripping off Kel-Tec and Walther.

Yea! He copied those guns, just look they have a barrel, and sights and grips and a clip, or magazine, and heaven forbid, they actually shoot metallic shells. Just like the Ruger does. Now! I have a question for you! Look at all of the guns that you show and please tell me just which parts will fit the Ruger, or Rugers that is supposed to be a copy. How many parts of the Ruger #1 will fit the Farquharson? How many parts of the Red Label will fit the browning superposed? How many parts of the M77 will fit the Mauser. Oh! By the way! Ruger had nothing to do with ripping off Kel-Tec as he was already dead by then!!!! He may have copied a general design or look, but that is as far as it goes. He improved on it, made it cheaper, and easier to make with his own design. Colt made the Single Action from 1873 to 1940s and they made very little change in it. Ruger re-designed it to make it a lot more reliable, and easier and cheaper to make. Then when Congress was going to pass the Saturday night special law, Ruger got to work and re-design the Single Actions to have a transfer bar system so as to be legal if Congress passed the bill. Although I hate the system, but because of Congress this had to be done. If he hadn't come up with this system all of the single Actions that Ruger made would have been outlawed! Another footnote to his design skills.

Even if Ruger did copy every gun that he has made from another designer, which he didn't. He would be a genius by selling someone else guns a lot cheaper and more of them then the original manufacture could. If he was a copier how could he sell the same thing that Colt and Smith & Wesson did and turn a $50,000 company into what it is worth today? Over 800 million. Only way he could do that is one word. "GENIUS"

There are only so many basic firearms designed out there. automatics, bolt actions, over-unders, revolvers ect. ect. So what would he have to do, come up with a Buck Rogers type gun to be call a firearms genius, ops that's already been done. Where he excels is how he designs how to manufacture a gun so that it is reliable, cheap to make, desirable so that a lot of people will want to buy it. This is what he has done and has done it well. Come on! His ability to do this was classic and that is why people in the firearms industry has call him a genius. To borrow, or as you would say copy, from the old Holman & Moody Fords. Bill Rugers designs are "COMPETITION PROVEN".

 

[rugerguy]

blackmore sorry I quoted YOU, it was elrodcod, I did NOT "see" the blue background that you had quoted him, on my screen it looked like you printed it..........just cause we agree and say he was a 'copier", not meant derogatory, you guys feel that, as for our feeling and our opinion, as for a "genius" again , I say NOT.....my opinion and my .02 cents and no we never worked for him and I would NOT have worked for him under those kind conditions, only know what we-ve been told over the past 45 years by folks that did work for him some stayed ,some left, most have died..................and in MY talking with and to him, I got first hand his words, and his impressions, and stick by MY opinion of him, though I gotta admit towards the end, he was not doing that great.......as a stock holder I know what my stocks were doing when he and the family were in control, and look at them NOW...........hhhmmm.
back to the first question, yes, those books are very helpful for some of the info you are looking at, but do NOT get in great detail as to the many different designers ,engineers and technical peole who worked on various guns, your best bet is the US patent office on the original patent applications for the various guns...................
No , nothing wrong with calling one a 'copier", if you know what and why.
Again, just a forum, this is NOT a college or even a vo-tech class going on here...........................
Gammaray, good luck with your search :wink:

 

[street]

as a stock holder I know what my stocks were doing when he and the family were in control, and look at them NOW...........hhhmmm.

You must not have own Ruger stock very long. I bought RGR in the 80s. I only bought 10 shares as I just wanted to have the certificate to display when displaying my Ruger Collection. It split sometime in the 80s, 2 for 1, which made 20 shares. Then it split in 1993, 2 for 1, which made 40 shares. Then in 1996 it split again, 2 for 1, which gave me 80 shares. I only paid somewhere in the high 20s for the stock. Yes the new management is doing very well, and I hope we get another split. As for the family not doing a good job, that may be true, as Bill in his later years probably turned most of the operations over to his family. But when he was in good health and under control, well that's when my stock went up 8 times. Let's hope that the new management will do as well in the next 16 years as Bill Ruger did from 1980 to 1996. Let's see 80 shares times 8 equals 640 shares. I could live with that. 8).

Oh! By the way. I forgot to mention the dividends. In this period from 1980 to 1996 we always got a dividend. I have paid for my 10 shares multiple times with just the dividends.

 

[stantheman86]

Show me one great modern gun designer who didn't at least "borrow" a little from a previous design.

The Beretta 9mm pistols like the 92 series was "inspired" by the Walther P38..... many modern designs also "borrowed" from Glock....the S&W Sigma is pretty much a Glock clone, in fact early ones were so close Glock threatened a lawsuit.

Saying the Blackhawk is a Colt SAA "copy" is not accurate, it's just that Bill Ruger was a businessman, and saw a market for a tough SA revolver that could take hot .357's and .44's and cost a fraction of what a real Colt did in the 1950's, so that the working stiff could buy something to carry in his holster on the farm without taking out a 2nd mortgage. It may look like a Colt on the outside, but then all similarities end.

There a LOT of Dan Wesson fans out there, and in fact the designer of the Dan Wesson's action used to work for Colt and borrowed heavily on the Mark III action when he designed the DW.

Bill Ruger saw a demand for durable, tank tough Single Action revolvers that the working class man could afford. As well as .22 pistols and later rifles. They are made from economical castings and mass produced parts that require little fitting. His DA Six series took away a large portion of the market from S&W and Colt, and the Security Six provided a .357 duty gun in the same size and weight class as the S&W K-frame .357's, but the Ruger provided a lower cost and more durability.

By the time Ruger came along in the 1950's it was difficult and not always feasible to make a whole new 100% original firearms design, when you could just use some existing designs and simply "Ruger ize" them. A Blackhawk is just a Rugerized Colt SAA.

The DA Six is a completely original design, no other revolver before it offered modular components and no sideplate. The whole gun could be broken down for maintenance without taking out delicate screws and popping off thin sideplates. The guns would run forever with little maintenance and cost less than a S&W. That makes sense in a LOT of ways 8)

 

[mindustrial]

I still think ol' Bill put the loading gate on the wrong side...that's what happens when one lefty copies another.

 

[NH Rugerman]

I still think ol' Bill put the loading gate on the wrong side...that's what happens when one lefty copies another.

I have heard and read your comment on numerous occasions but never quite understood the logic...if the loading gate was on the other side, you would have to load the rounds with your left hand instead of your right which is how it is designed....am I missing something? :? :?: :?

 

[M'BOGO]

I still think ol' Bill put the loading gate on the wrong side...that's what happens when one lefty copies another.

I have heard and read your comment on numerous occasions but never quite understood the logic...if the loading gate was on the other side, you would have to load the rounds with your left hand instead of your right which is how it is designed....am I missing something? :? :?: :?

Meaning, a right handed shooter would keep his right hand on the grip to unload, and load the S/A with the left hand. Much the same way the left hand handles empties, and loading with a D/A revolver. Think about the Texas Longhorn Arms single action revolvers, I think they were the only ones to challenge the loading gate on the right side. Probably the only ones to think about it...

 

[NH Rugerman]

I have never tried it but it does sound interesting....thanks for enlightening me (and for being polite!)

Cheers! 8)

 

[edwardyoung]

I am looking for specific information here so I would like to stay on topic. That said, I am now searching for the best deal on R.L.Wilson's Ruger and His Guns. Hope to have the book in a week or so. Thanks again for the book sugestions.

If you have an Ollie's Bargain Store near you, they have them for $12.98.

 

[stantheman86]

The loading gate is on the right side of the Colt SAA because US Army Cavalry doctrine was that the saber was held in the right hand, and the revolver in the left. This is why correct SAA Army issue holsters were worn on the right hip, with the gun butt forward.

It had been this way since percussion revolvers were issued, the cutout to cap the nipples on the cylinder was also on the right side.

You can still eject the empties and load a SA revolver without taking it out of your right hand.

Plus, this "problem" was corrected by the swing out cylinder opening up on the left side

 

[Mule Skinner]

Many are unable to be objective in matters such as this, but I'll weigh in.


Most of J.M. Browning's design ONLY saw the light of day because they were "tweaked" by real engineers such as Wm. Mason & Tommy Johnson. FWIW, Wm. Mason designed the Colt SAA when he was at Colt. :wink:
Browning himself said that John Pedersen was the greatest gun designer of all time. 99.99% of people today don't even know who he was.


Was Bill Ruger a genius? Not as a gun designer IMO, but as a marketer and manufacturer he was Sam Colt II. :wink:

Yep. What this gentleman said. Only thing I would add..... I sure do wish William B. was still around!

Mule Skinner