An interesting observation.

pawncop

Blackhawk
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Apr 28, 2005
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Texas USA
Recently purchased a Blackhawk in .41 Magnum. Was at the range to try it out, and there were two officers from my agency that I did not know (I retired in 2019). Introduced myself, both had been on the force for about two years. One asked what I was shooting, told him a single action .41 Magnum and he looked at me like I had a third eye and said he had never heard of a .41 Magnum. Of course I gave him the opportunity to shoot it and provided a little history of the cartridge.

I just found it a little odd but then I guess the newer ones just don’t have the interest we did when I started (1979).
 
My observation, most cops know very little about firearms. This is not a recent observation.

Even the gun savvy ones are interested in the tactical stuff. They may have known more about Glocks, AR’s and tactical shotguns than most of us.


Today’s cops may be worse or better I don’t know. The internet certainly makes gaining knowledge much easier.
 
Several weeks ago I was at our local range to pop off some .44's with longshot powder.
Use same powder for my 10mm. Very happy with it.
Had a guy a few lanes down in full tactical gear up. Not sure if he was LEO. Many expensive handguns on bench in front of him. (I was a little jealous)
He was banging away for a while at 7 yards with full size man silhouette with his variety of weapons.
I was fascinated by his skill. (I am no expert)
The safest place in the range would be BEHIND his target. He was spraying everywhere on the paper except where it needed to be.
Scary stuff. I Hope he was not LEO but you never know.

A few years back I was at the same range with my Savage 99 from 1947.
I let a few of the younger people take turns shooting it. They had much fun but you can see by their looks. It's a lever action and it shoots?
Yes it does :cool:
 
While picking up my new Hunter in .41 Mag I had a chance to talk to an old, retired cop (he retired a lot longer ago than 2019). He carried a .41 Mag as his duty revolver for most of his career.
 
yessir , they either do or they don't,,,to many, the firearm is only a "tool" ,,:cool::rolleyes:...

...used to watch, see some of their reactions when going through some such "hogans alley" or other training , situational training video...."shoot, don't shoot" and I would bet many of YOU would 'react' wrongly...best one ever was the person being approached along the railroad tracks, in the dark and reaches behind him for his card that said "DEAF MUTE" and points it at the camera..............:unsure::(

Yes the 41 mag is an anomoly, recall many years ago, one local PD some carried the S&W Model 58 4-inch .41 mag revolver......I still like that one......;)
 
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Recently purchased a Blackhawk in .41 Magnum. Was at the range to try it out, and there were two officers from my agency that I did not know (I retired in 2019). Introduced myself, both had been on the force for about two years. One asked what I was shooting, told him a single action .41 Magnum and he looked at me like I had a third eye and said he had never heard of a .41 Magnum. Of course I gave him the opportunity to shoot it and provided a little history of the cartridge.

I just found it a little odd but then I guess the newer ones just don't have the interest we did when I started (1979).
Not so odd...my nephew who spent 6 years as a Marine sniper calls me to sight in a new rifle...
 
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Not a lot of cops are 'gun guys'. I've met a few. I asked the cop that I did my last ride along with if he was a gun guy, he told me 'not as much as you might think', and went on to tell me there was a guy in his department that was 'all into that s**t', and while he didn't say it, I got the impression he thought maybe that guy was a little over the top. Shooting, after all, is a small percentage of what a cop really does day to day, but when they need that skill, they REALLY need it. There are probably some cops out there that are banking on being lucky and never getting into a shooting, hopefully most of them train like their lives depend on it, because it may.
 
Yes the 41 mag is an anomoly, recall many years ago, one local PD some carried the S&W Model 58 4-inch .41 mag revolver......I still like that one......;)

The New York State Troopers used the Model 58 Smith and Wesson in .41 Magnum as an experiment in the 1960's. A friend of mine who is long dead carried one when he was a bodyguard for Governor Nelson Rockefeller
 
When LAPD first authorized semi autos the officers had to supply their own and qualify with them before they could switch.

The local police range was still open to the public. I had been shooting there since I was a teenager and knew the staff.

I was watching a female officer practicing with her brand new Beretta. She would draw and dumb the magazine. The only safe place on the rage was the target. She dumped three magazines and hit the target twice at most.

My observation was that the only thing Hugh capacity guns did for a lot of cops was give them more chances to miss.

I always wondered if anyone ever compared the hit ratio between gangbangers and cops. I suspect they are pretty much even.
 
My observation was that the only thing high capacity guns did for a lot of cops was give them more chances to miss.
I always wonder if cops get harassed by other cops after a shootout with headlines along the lines of:

"Police involved shooting, 26 shots fired, suspect was wounded in the lower arm."

IMHO while they are on administrative leave, they should have to spend some time at the range learning how to hit the broadside of the barn.
 
Not a lot of cops are 'gun guys'.
Similarly, not a lot of cops are "law guys" either.

A few years ago I lived next to the neighbor from hell. He was either calling the cops incessantly, or acting up in such a manner that it was I that called them. Interacting with numerous city cops and Sheriff's deputies, none of them were found to have an accurate understanding of the law.
 
I bought a 41 Magnum Ruger Hunter revolver for deer hunting and the first time I brought it to deer camp got the same reaction. 40what?!?
 
Just to repeat, I will 39 years carrying a police badge. I had a real broad range of experiences and assignments. even training and hiring. When asking why do you want to be a cop. "To help my community" was the most common. Where did these men and women come from? your neighborhood.
What they do most every day if in uniform, work using a computer, drive a vehicle, carry a gun or 2. Many don't have any background in handguns, some are hunters with rifles or shotguns but few with handgun experience. Many have never owned or driven a V-8 auto or full-size SUV until they wear a uniform. Fewer have any training in any form of self-defense. But most know how to use a computer.
They get training and think of their office on wheels, their duty gear are just their tools of the trade. Some leave their duty gun in their locker, just like they left the keys to their patrol vehicle at the office.
Some never master driving their office code 3, shooting 100 % at the range, learn to fight their way out of a paper bag. That's sad but it happens.
Most, (not all) strive to be the best they can at their job. But don't know much about other firearms or fast cars etc. If they didn't have interest before in that stuff, most won't start.
 
My observation, most cops know very little about firearms. This is not a recent observation.

No skin off my back. I don't know crap about computers but I use one every day now.....in fact a lot of the day. Couldn't tell you how to break it down, clean it, repair it etc......

Some of the best LEOs I've worked with know nothing about firearms aside from their duty weapons. It's just a tool of their job like the computer is to mine now. The gun is not the most important element of LE as some seem to think it is.

However, the majority that I know and have worked with have incredible collections (not just modern or tactical stuff). Many have retired and are now gunsmiths.....in fact my local smith of the last few years is a medically retired LEO.

EDIT: I can't spell simple words apparently
 
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I have shot against LEO’s. ( yes, at a range). The most common comment used to be “Where did you learn to shoot like that?” Practice, practice, practice. And then practice more. Watch TV with your gun in your hand. Your duty or carry weapon needs to become an extension of your body. Pointing your gun should be as intuitive as pointing at something with your index figure. Develop and religiously perform drills that test and increase your proficiency. Drills that involve hitting moving targets. Drills that require accuracy while on the run. Find a way to shoot from behind real world barricades, and at targets that are behind real world barricades.

I was trained in the early 90’s by a civilian trainer for “special forces”, for lack of a better term. We used to go out once a week and burn through an half full 5 gallon bucket of 9mm. Unfortunately, now some 30 years later, the muscle memory is diminishing as is the vision and steadiness. I still train but nowhere near as intensively as before. But I still have “minute of man” capability.
 
Owning a gun range,, as well as having a son as a LEO,, and knowing a lot of LEO's,, I think the average percentage of LEO's who are gun people, and actively practice & shoot more than just doing quals,, is about 15%.

That makes 85% of them NON-GUN types.

Luckily,, most will never NEED to use a duty firearm.

But the worst part is the ones that have to,, often fail to be as skilled as they should be. Operating a computer is fine,, but it's not a tool to save your life or to protect the public with.

I encourage as many LEO's as I can to come & shoot here. This past Saturday,, at my monthly USPSA match,, I know of (6) LEO's who were shooting. That's out of 46 guys.
 
I've paid for my own training... best I can figure over 250 hours, and I'm a pretty good shot with a handgun. But I know for a fact that if I fall into a bad situation my accuracy is going to heck... I suspect that because LEO's have to deal with all kinds of situations and people routinely they will be able to handle a deadly encounter better than me. I did twice take a force on force class where you are just thrown into a situations and have to immediately react and some of them were to do nothing other than run and dial 911. It is a real eye opener to be presented with a questionable dangerous situation and have a half a second to determine what to do.
 
FATS training was an eye opener back in the early 90's.......I remember an "open house" where a department was giving a demonstration and allowed civilians to give it a try....a few mouthy smirky Billy Bobs were humbled very quick. It isn't real life but the scenarios are scripted from real cases.

We went through a mobile FATS which was hauled around in a trailer. It's dark, light bars are installed for some scenarios, it draws you in and you forget you are inside a trailer. Simulation can be very real.
 
Yep,, the sudden immediate stress of a very dire situation can often result in a person freezing,, or failing to act quick enough to properly defend themselves or prevent bad things.

Combat vets will tell you how often the FNG will get killed the quickest because of this.

LEO's are no different.

And MANY,, MANY gun owners & such feel the same way. I know I used to think; "I can handle myself if something bad happens." I knew I shot a lot,, (on a range) hunted a lot, especially with a handgun. And I had the mental attitude that "I was very capable."
Then I tried a stress induced game called USPSA. I found out how good I was NOT!!!!!!!! Many will poo-poo the idea of such games or competitions etc saying it's not the real thing, or it doesn't help etc. I will QUICKLY agree that it's not the same thing,, but it's a way to safely train your body & mind to become "motor memory friendly" with a bit of stress, AND teach you fast gun handling skills.
We have a saying in USPSA. "When the buzzer goes off,, the brain disengages!" And this is with a pre-planned idea of the stages.

There is not an inexpensive way for people to regularly train a LOT to be truly ready for the sudden event of a bad situation where it can mean life or death.

But as Blume mentioned,, there are schools & such,, or as XUSNORDIE mentioned,, the FATS training. But just doing these things is not regular & often training enough to where your mind & body develop the motor memory skills it needs. This is where games like USPSA, IDPA, can benefit people a lot.

I've often said that all police departments should be requiring every LEO that is required to carry a firearm to do a minimum of a full day of stress induced training (like USPSA or IDPA) at least once a month! In these games a timer induces stress, because part of your actual score is calculated using time. In USPSA,, it's your hits on a target,, AND your time that determines the score you receive. We have a saying; You can't hit slow enough to win, nor can you miss fast enough to win." You need good hits, AND a fast time to win. And if LEO's were judged by their monthly scores in a manner that would require them to achieve a certain level of scoring, then they would be MUCH better on the street. I would go as far as to NOT allow them to see a stage prior to having to shoot it. But I would also say that if they were to be required to do this,, MANY more would begin participating in games like USPSA to make sure they keep their job.

We hear it all the time. A "LEO was involved in a shooting. The suspect was injured or killed, or the LEO(s) were injured or killed."
Heck,, just last night,, the local news had a short story without many details,, where a local County officer was involved in a shooting. He responded to a call of a person randomly shooting. He arrived and a gunfight happened. The suspect and officer were injured, and taken to the hospital. The names of the officer & suspect were not released.

My first thoughts were; "How many shots did the officer fire after he determined he had to engage the suspect?" My second thoughts were; "Why wasn't the suspect killed?"

So,, it's not just cops who aren't gun people yet who have guns. I would suspect that a good percentage of the people here who own guns, and shoot regularly are better than most cops. But many of the gun people who do shoot a lot are also not well trained to be able to truly react properly & quickly handle a bad situation.

The BIG difference is we pay the LEO's to be our protectors AND they are required to carry a firearm as part of their job.

The minimums of LEO qualification is a joke to many of us here,, but it's still FAR from what they should do.
Those of us who do carry & practice & do things to make us better, are often the very ones who will fare better in a bad situation.
 
I live in the country and our nearest town is population 16,000 or so. Nearest city is Desmoines IA I'm gonna say that the stuff I see on the local news everyday just makes me wonder why anyone would want to be a police officer. Between drug related activity, domestic violence and just plain craziness, we are just lucky to have people who are even willing to put on the uniform.
 
A close friend was the range master at the county sheriff. At the time (80's) I was allowed to shoot at the range when it wasn't busy. That means, any time, all the time, except the week before qualifications. I knew a lot of the deputies too. The ones that shot competition were good. The others not so much. There were a couple detectives that came down and shot every day the week prior. They needed that week.

Jay even starting introducing practice nights with some scenarios. Guys freaked out when he turned off the lights and fired up a couple light bars.

I have what seems to me an even stranger scenario. I took my NRA trainer class a couple years ago. The INSTRUCTOR had never touched a single action revolver. He called them cowboy guns that no one ever used. I corrected him and even brought in a couple to teach him. He even had me instruct the class on SA's that day.
 
My observation, most cops know very little about firearms. This is not a recent observation.

Even the gun savvy ones are interested in the tactical stuff. They may have known more about Glocks, AR's and tactical shotguns than most of us.


Today's cops may be worse or better I don't know. The internet certainly makes gaining knowledge much easier.
20 or so years ago the Dept of Defense gave some M14s to the Buncombe Co. Sheriff Dept. The BCSD wanted to zero these rifles and get range cards on their M4s. They asked to use my gun club's rifle range out to 300 yards, since the club requires members to be present when an activity like this is conducted on our club, I and another member were present acting as "range officers". There was about 10 people involved. During the firing of the M14s the officers had the elevation run up as high as it would go and were still shooting low. Seems they did not know how to use an aperture rear sight, had never heard of putting the top of the front sight in the center of the fuzzy circle with the target on top of the post. The officers admitted the only sight they had learned to use was a red dot and a scope.
 
Contender is spot on, thanks for pointing it out.

We used to have "carry oriented matches" and had varying conditions that were way beyond even IPSC or USPSA.

There was only one shooter allowed in the range (no walk through or preview) so the shooter went in not knowing the scenario which could mean reduced and or confusing lighting like police car lights, blaring sirens and music, and other distractions like a house clearing scenario.

One new guy came in who claimed to be a Navy Seal and when we advised him of the distractions possibly getting his adrenaline pumping he boldly said "I don't HAVE adrenaline"

Well when he finished shooting he was visibly shaken and I said, "it seems like we discovered your adrenaline pool?"

That said I attended three LEO only NRA certified instructor's courses and the vast majority of officers there were not surprisingly extremely competent, but there were a rare few officers who were unprepared and the NRA instructors assigned one of the more competent student officers to help the deficient student.

Now these were instructor candidates and the officers were as expected top notch shooters, as were the police officers I shot USPSA with but in reality my understanding of LEO "qualification" in many cases is inadequate for street cops and I'm told it's a matter of lack of funding. So sad that municipalities can justify building enormous city halls, fire departments, police stations and dog parks but skimp on officer training.
 
FATS training was an eye opener back in the early 90's.......I remember an "open house" where a department was giving a demonstration and allowed civilians to give it a try....a few mouthy smirky Billy Bobs were humbled very quick. It isn't real life but the scenarios are scripted from real cases.

We went through a mobile FATS which was hauled around in a trailer. It's dark, light bars are installed for some scenarios, it draws you in and you forget you are inside a trailer. Simulation can be very real.
We had one not sure how many times I went through it. Maybe 8-10 over 3-4 years. Never had the same situations except sight in. Fun training but if you were trying to win it had some stress. Never had it open to civilians.
FATS training was really a tool to react properly to a situation thrown at an officer and be judged by the instructors. An officer could overreact or not react fast enough to fail.
The sad part of this thread is that police training all depends on funds. The training unit is low on the picking order to receive those funds. When money gets tight, training takes a hit, almost the 1st every time. Beyond the basic academy firearms training, I believe 3 times a year for 4 hours a session
 
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I BELIEVE SF PD CARRIED THE MOD 58 4" AND THERE ARE HOSPITAL SCENES IN "BULLET" WITH SFPD OFFICERS CARRYING THEM..... PROBABLY OFF-DUTY OFFICERS "ACTING". WE USED TO DO THAT IN MY DEPT BACK IN THE DAY.
 
I have heard this many times- “How come the bad guys are such good shots and the cops aren’t?”

One thing to bear in mind…when a LEO, or any “good guy” is involved in a shooting, there is always a momentary delay when engaging a target. This is that moment when you determine what’s behind your target, and where any friendlies might be in your line of fire. This give a huge advantage to a perp- they don’t care where “misses” end up. They just shoot.

Imagine how fast you could clear a stage if misses and non-threat hits didn’t matter?
 
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