A fool and his reloading gear .....

[revhigh]

Just heard something at my gun club today that made me laugh. A good friend was reloading '357 magnums' and he's the type of guy that wants to do EVERYTHING as cheap as possible, whether it makes sense or not. I've repeatedly warned him that he should use caliber appropriate powder and caliber appropriate loads. He, however .... wants to use ONE powder for 38, 357, 45LC, 44 magnum, and 45ACP. So he buys Unique, and Unique ONLY.

He was shooting his 357 at the range, and because he wants to load as absolute cheaply as possible (most rounds per pound of powder), he was using a ridiculously light load. The bullets were literally bouncing off the target, which is heavy rubber made from belting materials. Then he had 2 bullets stick in the barrel ... luckily he didn't shoot the gun after he stuck the bullet in the barrel.

Just goes to show that some people just shouldn't be reloading. Everybody was talking about it at the range today. What a fool.

REV

 

[Lost Sheep]

While I count the cost of the components in my rounds, I do not let them figure one bit in my charge weight calculations. Recoil and leading make that decision for me for target shooting. Terminal ballistics alone decide for self-defense rounds.

So, just how much of a fool is your friend? Has he decided that TOO MUCH economy is a false economy?

IQ definitions:

An idiot does not learn from experience.

A fool only learns from his own experience.

The truly wise learns from the experiences of others.

Put another way:

Good judgement comes from experience.

Experience comes from bad judgement.

I am, myself (to put it kindly), frugal. After I ran through my first pound of powder (2400) in my .357 Magnum (careful to stay BETWEEN the maximum and minimum book loads) I went to the books and found the most energy-dense powder available at the time where I was.

Bullseye gave me more rounds per pound than any other powder I could buy at the time, so I used that for a long time. Later I switched my favorite to Unigue. The energy density of Bullseye was just too scary. Too easy to not notice a double charge.

When I introduced a friend to loading, I introduced him to Trail Boss for his 500 S&W. Really hard to overcharge with this powder, nor to miss an uncharged case. However, it is by far one of the least economical powders. Unless you measure the WORTH, instead of the COUNT. Having a load that delivers a half-inch 350 grain bullet at 800 fps is GREAT for familiarization, training, introducing new shooters to the 500 without risking "rear-sight recoil forehead" syndrome.

So, what does he load to (and with) now? Do you think he would invest in a chronograph? Saving $25 worth of powder is nothing compared to a $400 gun.

Good luck to you and to your friend

Lost Sheep

 

[Pal Val]

Good thing that guy was reloading and not sky diving. Seems like he has difficulty doing things right the first time.

I may be worng...

 

[Cholo]

Good grief! Is he so cheap that he didn't even spring for a loading manual?

 

[revhigh]

Good grief! Is he so cheap that he didn't even spring for a loading manual?

Nah ... he has reloading manuals, and he's a really good guy, just into reloading on the cheap. He always marvels at my 357 magnum loads being hot, when in actuality, they're just top of the scale 2400 rounds. I like a 357 magnum to BE a 357 magnum and I don't care what the powder costs.


REV

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I can think of better ways to save money than cutting way back on POWDER CHARGE. :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll: :roll:

 

[Rclark]

So he buys Unique, and Unique ONLY.

I guess I don't see a problem here using Unique.... I use Unique in all those calibers too. It works really well. It is a good all around powder, is economical, and has a decent bulk to it. I think he made a good choice as far as that is concerned.

That said, absolutely no need for loading really light. Stick with .22 if you want really 'cheap' target loads! On the other hand, no need for wrist busters either. Unique is still 'cheap' to shoot compared to say 2400, 4227 or H110, etc. and you still get decent velocity and accuracy. 6 - 10 grains per charge (depending on caliber), to me, is 'economical' !

I like a 357 magnum to BE a 357 magnum and I don't care what the powder costs.

Disagree . The whole beauty of reloading is you don't have to shoot 'hot' all the time. Target practicing with nice .38 to .38+P level loads is plenty. My favorite .357 loads are in the 1000fps range. Makes for a good day of shooting.

 

[Old Judge Creek]

There's enough 'pure BS' in this thread thus far to start several Range Wars.

I will say that I have more than once "excused" a shooter from my range following a second squib.

... And thats all I'll say about that.

 

[Lost Sheep]

There's enough 'pure BS' in this thread thus far to start several Range Wars.

I will say that I have more than once "excused" a shooter from my range following a second squib.

... And thats all I'll say about that.

I'm curious. I did not smell anything like that. Every post seemed to me to pretty much true and reasonable.

Foolishness, yes, plenty of that, but pretty much only on the part of the subject of the first post (who, to my knowledge has not participated in this thread yet). Everyone else seems to have their heads screwed on straight.

Now, excusing a shooter for a couple of squibs is your call. If you discern the squibs are due to careless reloading, yeah, I'm all over that.

Lost Sheep

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Titegroup is a often used powder for 9mm, it burns fairly clean and is accurate. It is also easy as heck to double load it in that cartridge. I don't use it very much and that's one reason.
I know I will get 2,000 moderate (minor PF) rounds out of a pound and that will save me about $3 over 231/HP-38, Power Pistol, WSF and maybe $4 over AA#7 for the same 2000 rounds.
It also will shoot differently at .1grs variation at those loads. In a semiauto pistol that's firing fast, well that's not so good as far as impulse goes, reason number two.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

Is it just me, or does anyone else look in wonderment at shooters who own and shoot thousands of dollars worth of guns, then try to save a buck on powder?

I'm always reminded in these threads of a fellow who shot at our range for a while, describing the "economics" of competitive trapshooters:

"These are guys who'll drive 1000 miles in a $250,000 motor home to go to a weekend shoot, pull out a $10,000 shotgun, pay $200-$500/day to shoot the event, then go home and cut their own hair to save money!"

Sound like we could find some corollaries here?

Rick C

 

[mr surveyor]

Hi,

Is it just me, or does anyone else look in wonderment at shooters who own and shoot thousands of dollars worth of guns, then try to save a buck on powder?

I'm always reminded in these threads of a fellow who shot at our range for a while, describing the "economics" of competitive trapshooters:

"These are guys who'll drive 1000 miles in a $250,000 motor home to go to a weekend shoot, pull out a $10,000 shotgun, pay $200-$500/day to shoot the event, then go home and cut their own hair to save money!"

Sound like we could find some corollaries here?

Rick C

hhhmmmm.... I drive 6 miles to the "event", drive a 2003 Nissan p/u, spend $10 for the event, and use a $400 gun..... but I still cut my own hair too

and I don't scrimp on relaoding components!

 

[7p's]

See what you started REV? Then there's some of use that purchase a "high-end" pistol or revolver every once in awhile and a chrono and shoot heavy for caliber bullets at warp speed in an attempt to see just how much we can wring out of that puppy relative to fps just before a KABOOM - and I go to a barber college for reduced costs because my wife has refused to cut my hair since I graduated from college and got my 1st paycheck, which wasn't much more than what a haircut costs today.

 

[Sal1950]

So he buys Unique, and Unique ONLY.

I guess I don't see a problem here using Unique.... I use Unique in all those calibers too. It works really well. It is a good all around powder, is economical, and has a decent bulk to it. I think he made a good choice as far as that is concerned.

That said, absolutely no need for loading really light. Stick with .22 if you want really 'cheap' target loads! On the other hand, no need for wrist busters either. Unique is still 'cheap' to shoot compared to say 2400, 4227 or H110, etc. and you still get decent velocity and accuracy. 6 - 10 grains per charge (depending on caliber), to me, is 'economical' !

I like a 357 magnum to BE a 357 magnum and I don't care what the powder costs.

Disagree . The whole beauty of reloading is you don't have to shoot 'hot' all the time. Target practicing with nice .38 to .38+P level loads is plenty. My favorite .357 loads are in the 1000fps range. Makes for a good day of shooting.

Yep I agree and I'm cheap too. That's the #1 reason I got into reloading almost 30 years ago. I use Hodgdon Universal for 9mm, .40, 10mm, 38, 357, 45LC, 44 magnum, and 45ACP.. I can dial in rounds that are just maybe 5-10% shy of what you can get with a "best choice" powder or dial down to a nice "shoot all day" soft kicking load. Then I can get the best price on the powder by grabbing up a deal on a 8lb keg when one turns up.
Then I always keep some Alliant 2400 around to load up my 454 Casulls or 460 S&W's but I don't shoot a ton of that so a pound or two lasts a while.

That said, downloading under minimum book recommendations for whatever reason is just plain dumb and VERY dangerous. You never know when a round that sounded just fine might have stuck a bullet and make a BIG boom the next time you pull the trigger.
You can be a frugal reloader without being stupid about it.
LOL
Sal

 

[LAH]

You can be a frugal reloader without being stupid about it.
LOL
Sal

Well said neighbor to the south. 8)

 

[protoolman]

Heck you can make good loads for darn near any caliber of revolver out of Unique. But then I get my wife to cut my hair so I can afford to drive my new pickup truck too. What does that make me? Just confused?

 

[Lost Sheep]

Heck you can make good loads for darn near any caliber of revolver out of Unique. But then I get my wife to cut my hair so I can afford to drive my new pickup truck too. What does that make me? Just confused?

That you are very trusting of your wife. :lol:

 

[Biggfoot44]

Unique can indeed be used in the cals initially listed , and a wide variety generally.

Of course I reject the whole One Powder theory , and instead hold that it takes Two Powders to do virtually anything handgun related.

Beyond frugality , those shooters who live in jurisdiction with Fire Marshall regulation severlly restricting the total amount of smokeless powder to be possesed do have a legit desire to make a powder do lots of different things.

And about 20yrs ago I realized that about all that could be done w/ my remaining hair was to cut it all to a #4 . I can do that myself just as well as pay $15 + tip .

 

[LAH]

And about 20yrs ago I realized that about all that could be done w/ my remaining hair was to cut it all to a #4 . I can do that myself just as well as pay $15 + tip .

And to think I use a #2. :lol:

 

[Sal1950]

And about 20yrs ago I realized that about all that could be done w/ my remaining hair was to cut it all to a #4 . I can do that myself just as well as pay $15 + tip .

And to think I use a #2. :lol:

#4, #2 Why ya'll gettin fancy ???
I just run the bare Wal clippers at their closest setting all over my head once a week and all is well.
I can load me 100 rounds of .357 every week with the $ I save. 8)
Sal

 

[Cheesewhiz]

Sal, that's coming from a man that God gave a haircut to some time back, my best guess.

 

[Sal1950]

Sal, that's coming from a man that God gave a haircut to some time back, my best guess.

SIR, It's referred to as a Solar Sex Panel. :lol:

Good news is that the look is all the rage today, over half of the high school guys are trying to look just like me. Never guessed that 45 years after high school I'd be a trend setter.
Sal

 

[Cheesewhiz]

As long as you don't have one of those trendy fuzzy wool knited caps with ear flaps and ties you won't get confused with a pimpled faced sophomore bohemian.

 

[Sal1950]

As long as you don't have one of those trendy fuzzy wool knited caps with ear flaps and ties you won't get confused with a pimpled faced sophomore bohemian.

Naw, those are for you Chicago guys.
A little too warm to wear down here in Central FL with my shorts and flip flops.
Sal

 

[dougader]

I once had an FFL, and sold mostly to the attorneys I knew from my paralegal/legal investigator days. One guy I truly admired was a senior partner at his law firm. He was a great hunter and the nicest guy you could every meet.

Before a big, guided hunt to Wyoming, he had me order him a 270 Weatherby mag rifle, a top-end Leupold scope and some ammo. He balked at my wholesale price for Weatherby ammo and instead had me order some 150 grain PMC ammo.

When he got back from the hunt I gave him a call to see how it went for mule deer and antelope. He said he was disgusted with his new Weatherby and was ready to pitch it into the dumpster. I told him to put it in my dumpster... but he wasn't laughing. He said he shot an antelope at about 80 yards and it merely turned to look at him and ran away. His guide had to drop the antelope for him and he was embarrassed as all heck.

He told me he finished the hunt with his old Browning 30-06, and wanted to buy a 340 Weatherby for an upcoming elk hunt.

I said, "hey, you spent how many thousands of dollars for the guns, gear, airfare, and guided hunt and all. Wouldn't it make sense NOT to go cheap on the ammo?"

I then told him I would buy him 2 boxes of the Weatherby brand 270 WM ammo that was loaded with 150 grain Nosler Partitions, and if he wasn't satisfied with the performance then he didn't need to pay me... and, I'd buy him dinner to boot.

Well, he came back with the biggest darn elk you've ever seen. A monster it was. Apparently, the elk jumped, and then just laid down at the first shot.

Sometimes economy will cost you more in the long run.

 

[Lost Sheep]

dougader,

Nice post. I am trying to figure out how to summarize it in a one-sentence homily. Something like "Penny wise and pound foolish.", but the opposite.

I know there must be one already coined, but can't recall it. Perhaps something along the lines of, "Pulling the rug out from under one's own efforts with a false economy." But more artful.

Any help?

Lost Sheep

 

[Sal1950]

Doug and Lost Sheep,
Maybe I'm dense but I don't see how either of your posts are applicable to the issues of this thread?
Sal

 

[Lost Sheep]

Doug and Lost Sheep,
Maybe I'm dense but I don't see how either of your posts are applicable to the issues of this thread?
Sal

The O.P. spoke of the reloader who, after investing in loading equipment and gun then goes dangerously cheap on the powder.

My post of March 12 was not on-subject (replying directly to the preceding post with my attempt at a punch line), but today's (March 17) post from Dougader seems to me to be precisely on point and my reply only a little off on a tangent.

In any event, the thread is light-hearted enough to stretch the bounds of on-subject/off-subject limits. Even though the O.P.'s friend is seriously in danger of harming himself. Unfortunately that is definitely NOT light-hearted.

Lost Sheep

 

[WESHOOT2]

I have found over my years there are many who load their own ammo (or even for others, even commercially) who have an insufficient grasp of the concepts and fundamentals to safely do so.

 

[M'BOGO]

From here it seems like a case of penny smart, dollar foolish. In order to save pennies, willing to damage or destroy something of far greater value.

What holds its value more, percentage wise, firearms, or automobiles.