A few comments about the 22LR

[blume357]

You are entitled to believe what you wish, as am I.

For sure,

I'd prefer to test and evaluate the performance of a certain caliber on " wallboard or such" than the other: " flesh and blood/plaid shirt".
It might not be totally realistic but much easier and safer as well as cheaper (lawyers are expensive these days) than the latter.

 

[Mobuck]

Update on my previous post about variability of 22 bullet performance: Skinned coyote carcass shows the sub-sonic round nose 22 bullet did not fully penetrate/exit the chest cavity (approx 5-6"). Possible the 'energy dump' of the little bullet caused the quick demise but the actual tissue damage did not look that impressive. Just one of those things that aren't easily explained.

 

[Xsales]

The point being is 380 gets a bad rap as weak, the 9mm is the 'go to' round, and the 45 ACP is supposed to be so much better.
However they all performed the exact same way. Wallboard or plaid shirt.

Agree
Many guys talk about how a .380 or 9mm is under powered yet I never met a guy willing to take 3 to the chest or for that matter 1 to the chest
If it is so under powered what is the hesitation?

I agree with you any round with shot placement is deadly including a 22lr

While I do carry 9mm, I'd never want a .380 to the chest or face of eye, groin etc.

 

[Mobuck]

I think far too many users fail to differentiate 'final outcome' from 'immediate effect'.
An assailant who dies because a blood clot from a lung chokes a heart valve 20 minutes after being shot by his last murder victim isn't the same as a bad guy stopped by an adequate SD round BEFORE hurting his victim.

 

[LDB]

Many years ago an older woman, 50's maybe 60's, woke to find a very large man going through her dresser. She had a .25ACP of some sort. She shot him twice before he crossed the room and grabbed her. He proceeded to knock her around the bedroom and other rooms. She somehow managed to retain hold on the gun and at some point managed to hit him two more times. For some reason there were only 3+1 rounds in the 6+1 gun. After about 15 minutes he collapsed on top of her, pinning her barely 100 pound self under his 260 pounds or so body. She was found some time later, hospitalized incredibly beaten up, and survived. Her first shot proved deadly. But it took 15 minutes to incapacitate him and unknown extra time to die while pinning her to the floor. So use something larger than .2x for defense.

 

[pyth0n]

I'd carry a .25acp for SD before I carry a .22lr. No doubt .22LR can be lethal but unreliable ignition gives it an 'F' for SD, IMO.
Great practice for clearing malfunctions in semi auto. Slap, rack, shoot.

 

[GunnyGene]

it took 5 shots to kill a squirrel once.
it wasnt the ammo, and i am a good shot. it was the squirrels desire to live.

I had a similar experience with a racoon a couple years ago with CCI out of my Buck Mark. Had him treed so he just hung on for 5 or 6 hits.

 

[Mobuck]

^^^The above comment is exactly what I'm talking about--sometimes it 'works' and sometimes it doesn't. If your life depends on success and the shot(s) fails, how is that acceptable?
I may kill 100+/- animals in the 5 to 25 pound size range every year with a 22 rimfire and I pay attention to bullet performance. The only consistent attribute I see is inconsistency.

 

[kentucky yeti]

While not my first choice for S/D, I wouldn't hesitate to use it and I'd feel fairly comfortable with it. Then again, I kill 2, sometimes 3 steers, ranging from 800-1100 pounds every year. Since I was a kid, we have used .22 LR only. One shot to the head and they drop in their tracks, EVERY TIME. The slaughter house and the Amish use the same caliber. We used to kill 3 hogs every year with the same caliber and results. A thousand times I read on here that bullet placement is everything. Some of y'all must not believe what you post for others when they lament a wounded animal from X caliber. Unless I belong to a forum with dozens of guys who are all tougher than a 1000 lb steer and a 500 lb hog, then I'd say the argument is as subjective as Ford vs Chevy.

 

[Richard76]

I also use a 22 Buckmark for killing beef and hogs. Unless they jerk their head suddenly one shot is all it takes. awful hard to get them to look at the barrel again if you miss the sweet spot the first time

 

[jav]

I only use two types of 22lr ammo cci mini mags and blazer box ammo

 

[mirglip]

I only use two types of 22lr ammo cci mini mags and blazer box ammo

Ditto on Mini-Mags. CCI Standard Velocity burns cleaner than Blazer so I see no reason to buy Blazer.

 

[jav]

The blazer box runs perfectly in my p22

 

[jyo]

During my many years in the firearms industry---mostly managing retail stores, I've heard more stories than I can count about people using 22LR revolvers and pistols of all sizes shooting at bad guys and they all survived! Many bad guys run just from being fired upon (22s are loud), others were shot and wounded and stopped the attack, and still others (many actually) were killed during their attack! Most of the people using 22s were in the gun store the next day looking at/buying a larger sidearm the very next day, but they pretty much all survived!
Now about old/stored ammo---in my youth, I bought MANY bricks of Remington 22 Golden Bullets---then considered a premier brand of 22 plinking ammo for $5. a brick (!). I bought so many bricks of this ammo, I lost track... I stored them in metal surplus Army cans in my cool, dry basement. This ammo must be 50+ years old! Eight bricks per can (4000 rds)---recently, I pulled to a couple of cans during the 22 ammo shortage of a few years back---took random boxes to the range along with several pistols, revolvers, and rifles---A 1969 Walther PP, An old Colt Peacemaker 22 revolver, a Ruger 10-22 Deluxe Sporter, A Browning SA-22 semi-auto rifle made in Belgium from the 60s, and a 60s era Remington Nylon 66... My friend bought out two Marlin semi-auto rifles (Model 60 I believe), and a Marlin Model 39 lever-rifle... ALL these guns fired this old ammo PERFECTLY!! There was not a single malfunction---not a one! So, yeah, I believe proper storage is the key...
So that's my two cents worth...
Oh, and by the way, current Winchester bulk 22 ammo has very poor QC---I would avoid it...

 

[blume357]

While not my first choice for S/D, I wouldn't hesitate to use it and I'd feel fairly comfortable with it. Then again, I kill 2, sometimes 3 steers, ranging from 800-1100 pounds every year. Since I was a kid, we have used .22 LR only. One shot to the head and they drop in their tracks, EVERY TIME. The slaughter house and the Amish use the same caliber. We used to kill 3 hogs every year with the same caliber and results. A thousand times I read on here that bullet placement is everything. Some of y'all must not believe what you post for others when they lament a wounded animal from X caliber. Unless I belong to a forum with dozens of guys who are all tougher than a 1000 lb steer and a 500 lb hog, then I'd say the argument is as subjective as Ford vs Chevy.

the issue is that very few people, either good or bad, are going to stand still and let you put a gun up against the back of your head... I'm going to be running away and dodging at the same time. I grew up on a farm also and we used a 22lr to dispatch of the hogs also ...... Had a friend who worked in prison and it was pretty normal for an inmate to show and brag about his 9mm scares... but I don't think I heard of any showing off one on the back side of their head. Those guys are all in some back road ditch now buzzard food.

 

[kentucky yeti]

the issue is that very few people, either good or bad, are going to stand still and let you put a gun up against the back of your head... I'm going to be running away and dodging at the same time. I grew up on a farm also and we used a 22lr to dispatch of the hogs also ......

I'm confused, as usual. So running and dodging a 9mm or a .45 (or a 357 Sig lol) is more lethal than dodging a .22? I assume a miss is a miss, and a bad hit is a bad hit- which is why I referenced the bullet placement argument I see constantly on here.

 

[Terry Morgan]

While not my first choice for S/D, I wouldn't hesitate to use it and I'd feel fairly comfortable with it. Then again, I kill 2, sometimes 3 steers, ranging from 800-1100 pounds every year. Since I was a kid, we have used .22 LR only. One shot to the head and they drop in their tracks, EVERY TIME. The slaughter house and the Amish use the same caliber. We used to kill 3 hogs every year with the same caliber and results. A thousand times I read on here that bullet placement is everything. Some of y'all must not believe what you post for others when they lament a wounded animal from X caliber. Unless I belong to a forum with dozens of guys who are all tougher than a 1000 lb steer and a 500 lb hog, then I'd say the argument is as subjective as Ford vs Chevy.

Skeeter wrote of an older guy he knew who used a K-22 for slaughtering.

 

[old 41]

When hunting, I keep a 1" barrel 22LR NAA in my front pocket.
It has dispatched several big and small animals instantly with a brain pan shot that weren't yet completely gone.
I shot a small forked horn deer through the chest once with a 150-grain 30-06 Core-Lokt that ran at least 100 yards, blowing chunks of lung out before he collapsed
After watching videos of dozens of humans being shot, seeing hundreds of animals shot, it's amazing at times what an animal, or humans, can or cannot do after being shot.
Larger, faster bullets and construction, plus shot placement, all play a part, but the bottom line is that neither I nor anyone else wants to be hit with any bullet. And anything self-defence is better than nothing

 

[Jakeintexas]

There is an argument that the 22 is responsible for more deaths than any other caliber in history.
That sounds pretty terminal to me

There was a DOJ study some years back but I think the conclusion was murky. If I recall correctly it said something along the lines of, "probably more homicides or death were caused by 22 caliber than anything else" not counting military action etc.
I haven't taken the time to look it up. I think it had more to do with the commonality of it and the widespread availability.
Anyway, I was just making the argument. I don't think 22 is the most lethal caliber there is, but I think it's better than nothing.

I wouldn’t doubt that.

But also for a self defense gun I’m interested in stopping the threat. Whether or not it dies is of no real consequence.

A .22 might well convince an opportunist to do almost anything else than what he or she is doing. But I don’t know that it would be a great choice for someone more dedicated or high on drugs. If it’s all I had it beats nothing but I can usually have something better for the task at hand.

 

[protoolman]

I'm going to stick with president Joe's ballistic advise. If I shoot em with a 9mm it will for sure result in blowing their lungs outside the body. No .22 can guarantee that! Seriously I have carried a .22 (mag) in a derringer for self defense. It was my last ditch gun for being blindsided/assaulted when I was a cop. I always figured if somebody was beating me a .22 mag in the face, eye, gut whatever at contact distance would make them let go. I wouldn't take a .22 to a gunfight but it's an effective get off of me gun most times. If I was in a area where I might be assaulted a 22 might be fine for sd but if the boys all carry glocks I'd up the ante and get an accurate .45.

 

[Mobuck]

It really doesn't make any difference what one 'carries' as long as they don't have to use it.

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

I know a woman who shot an intruder in the forehead with a .22 short derringer. It just bounced off- but the guy did NOT keep coming. As I have mentioned, one of my carries is an LCP II .22lr with equipped with a skin contact activated trigger guard laser. The mag holds ten rounds. If I can't stop someone with it I should not be using a gun for self defense.

 

[DGW1949]

I don't know of a single person who has been involved in a shooting that later decided that a .22 or .380 was "enough gun". In fact, my experience has been just the opposite, meaning that I do know a couple that almost immediately went out and bought a bigger gun.....Including myself. The first time I used a gun to defend myself was back in 1970. I used an .410 H&R Topper because that's all I had and didn't know any better. Watching the guy take a "center of mass" hit from a 3"load of number-4 shot from less than 10 feet away and then run off was quite an education....No more "little guns" for me. Nowadays it's a 12GA. or .45....no squirrel guns need apply......

That's all, you guys carry on.

DGW

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

I don't know of a single person who has been involved in a shooting that later decided that a .22 or .380 was "enough gun". In fact, my experience has been just the opposite, meaning that I do know a couple that almost immediately went out and bought a bigger gun.....Including myself. The first time I used a gun to defend myself was back in 1970. I used an .410 H&R Topper because that's all I had and didn't know any better. Watching the guy take a "center of mass" hit from a 3"load of number-4 shot from less than 10 feet away and then run off was quite an education....No more "little guns" for me. Nowadays it's a 12GA. or .45....no squirrel guns need apply......

That's all, you guys carry on.

DGW

NOTE: "and then run off". The .410 did it's job as a self defense weapon. If he hadn't run off then you had time for another shot.

 

[DGW1949]

NOTE: "and then run off". The .410 did it's job as a self defense weapon. If he hadn't run off then you had time for another shot.

No Joe, what that really means is that he could have just as easily continued his attack but chose to leave instead.

DGW

 

[Joe Chartreuse]

No Joe, what that really means is that he could have just as easily continued his attack but chose to leave instead.

DGW

LOL! ....And you don't think being shot had anything to do with his choice? Maybe didn't want to get shot again? See, for me it's all about self-defense. Stopping an attack with one of the many tools I have. Self-defense- not necessarily by causing death every time. Blowing his lungs out his back, whatever. STOPPING beats killing in a lot of ways. In today's litigational society the paperwork, lawsuits, time before a judge all take forever- even if self-defense. Death is serious stuff. Also, and repeating myself, if I can't stop someone with 10 shots of .22lr I shouldn't bother with a gun. As for Serpico: Yup, he lived- but he didn't jump up and chase the guy, did he?
Yes, I own larger caliber guns. I just don't spend a lot of time worrying if what I am carrying is "enough". When it comes to attacks from PEOPLE it will always be enough. (I spend a lot of time in the forest, so THERE I worry about caliber.)

 

[LDB]

Isn't a .410 Topper a single-shot? So scenario B the BG continues to attack and achieves that before reloading is accomplished. And bad things happen. Not against .410 but against single-shot or 2-shots anything for defense. YMMV

 

[DGW1949]

LOL! ....And you don't think being shot had anything to do with his choice? Maybe didn't want to get shot again? See, for me it's all about self-defense. Stopping an attack with one of the many tools I have. Self-defense- not necessarily by causing death every time. Blowing his lungs out his back, whatever. STOPPING beats killing in a lot of ways. In today's litigational society the paperwork, lawsuits, time before a judge all take forever- even if self-defense. Death is serious stuff. Also, and repeating myself, if I can't stop someone with 10 shots of .22lr I shouldn't bother with a gun. As for Serpico: Yup, he lived- but he didn't jump up and chase the guy, did he?
Yes, I own larger caliber guns. I just don't spend a lot of time worrying if what I am carrying is "enough". When it comes to attacks from PEOPLE it will always be enough. (I spend a lot of time in the forest, so THERE I worry about caliber.)

I agree in that yeah, I'm sure that being shot did have a lot to do with it. Thing is though, his being shot "a little" left him with more than one choice...which is something that I don't personally want to leave an attacker.....You can if you want to, but not me....The way I see it, if I'm justified in shooting someone they dern-well better be doing something serious enough that they need to be stopped immediately, even if stopping them causes their death. Anything less would be irresponsible on my part, and THAT is what gets us in trouble with both the Law and the Lord.....But hey, it's your butt, so you fight your fights like you see fit and we'll both hope that your assailants will always choose to run off instead of finishing you off.

DGW

 

[DGW1949]

Isn't a .410 Topper a single-shot? So scenario B the BG continues to attack and achieves that before reloading is accomplished. And bad things happen. Not against .410 but against single-shot or 2-shots anything for defense. YMMV

You are correct, and no....with him already advancing from 10 feet, there was no time to reload. My next step would have been to use the gun like a ball bat and smack him upside the head....maybe...."Maybe" meaning if he didn't get me with the knife he was holding first....At any rate, your point is valid.
The only other thing I have to say is that all those folks out there that think they're going to have time to use all 7, 8, 10, or 13 shots, or whatever, out of those little pop guns they carry around are day dreaming. Things simply happen way too fast for that...plus, sometimes there's more than one bad guy and they have guns too. Then what?..And BTW, the bad guys have way-more experience at these things than most ordinary people do, and they don't just stand still waiting to get shot like those paper targets down at the range.

Serious stuff, that's what it is.
DGW

 

[mirglip]

One of the concerns about shooting someone with a .22 is that he may be alive to sue you.