5.56 vs .223

[acman]

I know that they are very similar and I plan to be shooting a Ruger ranch rifle, so I can shoot either one. Which is more powerful in the sense of stopping power. What is the best for the Ruger ranch rifle. Also which brand works best. I have heard that you get the best results with brass.

 

[Snake45]

Ruger Ranch rifle should be good with either one.

So that said, shoot whatever you can find and/or afford, and pick your own favorite ammo depending on what works best for YOU, YOUR rifle, and YOUR wallet. :wink:

 

[Clovishound]

I'm new to .223 rem, but my understanding is that 5.56 is the same basic cartridge, but has slightly higher max pressure. Conventional wisdom is you can shoot .223 is a 5.56, but should not shoot 5.56 in a .223. So, in theory, the 5.56 should be more powerful.

Check the MV on the boxes. Given the same weight bullet the nod should go to the highest MV.

 

[Mobuck]

" Which is more powerful in the sense of stopping power."
No significant difference. You're missing the point. "Stopping power" is related to bullet performance as long as you're within the effective range of the cartridge. To my knowledge, there is no true 5.56 loaded with other than full metal jacket bullets. The original M193(55 grain) bullets tended to tumble and separate into multiple projectiles inside flesh. The current M855(62 grain) is designed to better penetrate body armor and doesn't have the same effect especially from shorter barrels(or at longer range). To help counter this, the military bumped up the loading of the M855 to give it more effect from the shorter barrels.
What happens is the longer bullet plus a slightly hopped up load may cause problems in a chamber with a shorter throat and a more abrupt leade. I've only had one rifle choke on M193. It happens to be an H&R single shot and it has a noticeably tight chamber and a very abrupt leade. This rifle shows distinct high pressure signs with M193(the real stuff not current overrun)not seen with any other ammo I've tried. I've not fired any M855 in standard .223 chambers since I've no need to do so(don't expect to either since there are numerous 5.56 chambered rifles on the rack).

 

[The Blackhawk Kid]

5.56 is the military designation( NATO). .223 is the civilian version. The 5.56 has a different crimp for use in automatic weapons. .223 has the roll crimp. That's the way it was told to me. JMHO BHK P.S. they are the same cartridge.

 

[5of7]

from Wiki:

The 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are similar but not identical.[45] While the cartridges are identical other than powder load, the chamber leade, i.e. the area where the rifling begins, is cut to a sharper angle on some .223 commercial chambers. Because of this, a cartridge loaded to generate 5.56mm pressures in a 5.56mm chamber may develop pressures that exceed SAAMI limits when fired from a short-leade .223 Remington chamber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

I would infer from that, that if fired in a semi auto .223 rifle, it may cause problems. In a good bolt action, it should be safe enough. 8)

 

[DGW1949]

I know that they are very similar and I plan to be shooting a Ruger ranch rifle, so I can shoot either one. Which is more powerful in the sense of stopping power. What is the best for the Ruger ranch rifle. Also which brand works best. I have heard that you get the best results with brass.

Ballisticaly, there is no real difference in either. That said though, .223 can be had with bullet configurations (and weights) that are not available in 5.56, so I guess the answer to your "stopping power" question would depend on what type of critter you are wanting to "stop".
What is "best"?.....best for what? Me personaly, I have little use for HP or SP ammo in this particular bore size, so the much cheaper FMJ suits me fine. I'm sure that others will have their own favorite(s).
"Best for the rifle?"......the Ruger Ranch Rifle has a unique chamber/throat and can use either with no ill effects on the gun.
"Which brand works best?".....For my gun and my uses, I prefer Federal/Lake City 5.56 NATO. That particular "brand" is widely available in either M193 (55 Grn) or M855 (62 Grn) for about .40 per round if bought in case lots. Next up would be Federal American Eagle .223, which in my estimation, is about as good as it gets for "regular" .223 FMJ.
I've fired a limited amount of Winchester FMJ also, enough to know that it is OK accuracy-wise, but I'm not all that keen on ball powder. And the Winchester FMJ seems to run 15-cents (or so) more per shot than the Lake City that I use, so to me, it's a case of "why bother".
FWIW, Ruger say's not to use steel cased ammo.

Hope this helps.

DGW

 

[akeskinen]

from Wiki:

The 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are similar but not identical.[45] While the cartridges are identical other than powder load, the chamber leade, i.e. the area where the rifling begins, is cut to a sharper angle on some .223 commercial chambers. Because of this, a cartridge loaded to generate 5.56mm pressures in a 5.56mm chamber may develop pressures that exceed SAAMI limits when fired from a short-leade .223 Remington chamber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

I would infer from that, that if fired in a semi auto .223 rifle, it may cause problems. In a good bolt action, it should be safe enough. 8)

Bolt or semi-auto a short leade chamber could still cause over pressure issues best to be safe then sorry. It may work for a while but all it takes is one time to destroy a firearm and maybe get hurt.

 

[DGW1949]

from Wiki:

The 5.56 mm NATO and .223 Remington cartridges and chamberings are similar but not identical.[45] While the cartridges are identical other than powder load, the chamber leade, i.e. the area where the rifling begins, is cut to a sharper angle on some .223 commercial chambers. Because of this, a cartridge loaded to generate 5.56mm pressures in a 5.56mm chamber may develop pressures that exceed SAAMI limits when fired from a short-leade .223 Remington chamber.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5.56%C3%9745mm_NATO

I would infer from that, that if fired in a semi auto .223 rifle, it may cause problems. In a good bolt action, it should be safe enough. 8)

Bolt or semi-auto a short leade chamber could still cause over pressure issues best to be safe then sorry. It may work for a while but all it takes is one time to destroy a firearm and maybe get hurt.

True that.
To chance the battering of one's firearm for no good reason is never a good plan.
And while I'm at it.... Ruger's Mini has a strong lock-up system itself, which in fact, is not much different than a lot of bolt-action guns. In other words,two large locking lugs are two large locking lugs, about the only difference being that one has a camming device to lift and retract, the other uses a manualy operated handle.

Just sayin' that I wouldn't automaticly assume that my bolt action rifle was stronger than my semi-auto, and that I for-sure would use the fact that it's a "bolt action gun" influence me into making what might-well turn out to be an unwise ammo-decision.

DGW

 

[5of7]

True that.
To chance the battering of one's firearm for no good reason is never a good plan.
And while I'm at it.... Ruger's Mini has a strong lock-up system itself, which in fact, is not much different than a lot of bolt-action guns. In other words,two large locking lugs are two large locking lugs, about the only difference being that one has a camming device to lift and retract, the other uses a manualy operated handle.

Just sayin' that I wouldn't automaticly assume that my bolt action rifle was stronger than my semi-auto, and that I for-sure would use the fact that it's a "bolt action gun" influence me into making what might-well turn out to be an unwise ammo-decision.

DGW

I agree that the mini14 action is as strong as most bolt action guns, but my comment about it (the 5.56x45) being safe enough in a bolt action gun chambered for the .223 cartridge stems from the bolt gun not being gas operated.

With the gas gun, the port pressure is important because of the reasons you rightly pointed out, while with the bolt action, port pressure is not an issue. It is only chamber pressures that are the issue, and if the pressures spike to 10K or so over max, about all one may have is a slightly sticky extraction or at worst a blown primer, which is not so much as to do significant damage to the gun.

In my opinion, of course.....and yes, I have blown a few primers in my day in bolt guns with no damage to the gun. 8)

 

[Snake45]

IIRC, Ruger engineered the original Mini-14 to run (safely and reliably) on cheap, available surplus (and "liberated") .223 GI ammo, which is of course really 5.56. I assume the current Ranch Rifle is the same.

 

[Rick Courtright]

I would infer from that, that if fired in a semi auto .223 rifle, it may cause problems. In a good bolt action, it should be safe enough. 8)

Hi,

A buddy has both an AR (stamped 5.56/.223) and a Savage bolt, stamped .223.

He called Savage about the use of 5.56 ammo in their rifle. The answer was short and sweet, essentially going like this: "What does it say on the barrel?"

"Uh, .223."

"Ok, that's what you should shoot in it. Thank you for calling!"

Guess they didn't want to get into any of the "But, but, but..." stuff of gun forums about shooting "hotter" ammo than they tell us they designed their gun for?

Rick C

 

[Snake45]

He called Savage about the use of 5.56 ammo in their rifle. The answer was short and sweet, essentially going like this: "What does it say on the barrel?"

"Uh, .223."

"Ok, that's what you should shoot in it. Thank you for calling!"

Guess they didn't want to get into any of the "But, but, but..." stuff of gun forums about shooting "hotter" ammo than they tell us they designed their gun for?

Rick C

Well, we know absolutely nothing about the knowledge or qualifications of the person answering the phone, do we?

Now, let's add to that the fact that a great deal of what's sold in boxes labeled ".223" is actually overrun 5.56-spec ammo (or at least was for a long time).

(I have yet to hear of anyone blowing up a Savage ".223" rifle with "5.56" ammo. Has anyone else ever heard of such a thing?)

 

[macduff]

I know that they are very similar and I plan to be shooting a Ruger ranch rifle, so I can shoot either one. Which is more powerful in the sense of stopping power. What is the best for the Ruger ranch rifle. Also which brand works best. I have heard that you get the best results with brass.

5.56 should only be shot in a military chamber which has a longer lead in to the riflings which prevents high pressure with the hotter 5.56 ammo. Some 5.56 ammo has the warning on box.
223 will work in either sport or military chamber.

 

[DGW1949]

True that.
To chance the battering of one's firearm for no good reason is never a good plan.
And while I'm at it.... Ruger's Mini has a strong lock-up system itself, which in fact, is not much different than a lot of bolt-action guns. In other words,two large locking lugs are two large locking lugs, about the only difference being that one has a camming device to lift and retract, the other uses a manualy operated handle.

Just sayin' that I wouldn't automaticly assume that my bolt action rifle was stronger than my semi-auto, and that I for-sure would use the fact that it's a "bolt action gun" influence me into making what might-well turn out to be an unwise ammo-decision.

DGW

I agree that the mini14 action is as strong as most bolt action guns, but my comment about it (the 5.56x45) being safe enough in a bolt action gun chambered for the .223 cartridge stems from the bolt gun not being gas operated.

With the gas gun, the port pressure is important because of the reasons you rightly pointed out, while with the bolt action, port pressure is not an issue. It is only chamber pressures that are the issue, and if the pressures spike to 10K or so over max, about all one may have is a slightly sticky extraction or at worst a blown primer, which is not so much as to do significant damage to the gun.

In my opinion, of course.....and yes, I have blown a few primers in my day in bolt guns with no damage to the gun. 8)

Your point about port pressure is well taken. However, what is being discussed here is the differences in the throat area of a .223 chamber VS a 5.56 chamber. How the chamber is cut will indeed effect chamber pressure, but it's not going to effect port pressure one way or the other. Leastways, not enough to matter. Mostly what's matters there is powder charge and burn rate...which aint got nothing to do with throat leade.
Like I said though, I do get your point. Actually, I'm glad that you brought it up because if ya ask me, the gas system in Ruger's Mini is way over gassed. If a guy wanted to reduce the battering of his Mini, a good first step would be to restrict it's gas-orfice size by about half.

DGW

 

[Rick Courtright]

Well, we know absolutely nothing about the knowledge or qualifications of the person answering the phone, do we?

Hi,

Well, we know the person answering the phone was sharp enough not to vary their recommendation from the company line!

"5. USE CORRECT AMMUNITION
You must assume the serious responsibility of using only the correct ammunition for your
firearm. Read and heed all warnings, including those that appear in the gun's instruction man-
ual and on the ammunition boxes. Using improper or incorrect ammunition can destroy a
gun and cause serious personal injury. It only takes one shell of improper caliber or gauge to
wreck your gun, and only a second to check each one as you load it. Be absolutely certain
that the ammunition you are using matches the specifications that are contained within the
gun's instruction manual and the manufacturer's markings on the firearm barrel." (Emphasis added.)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/manuals/Manual_110LESeries-112VarmintTarget.pdf

Ever call Ruger and ask about using "Ruger Only" handloads in your .45 Colt? I doubt you'll get a long stimulating discussion there, either!

Disclaimer: I, too, was once smarter than the people who make the guns, but no longer make that claim. So please don't expect me to argue w/ those who still do...

Rick C

 

[5of7]

Calling Savage, or any other other firearms manufacturer, to ask if it is OK to shoot ammunition that is in any different from that which is stamped on the barrel, is a waste of time.....the answer is a foreseeable and always emphatic, NO!

One might expect the same answer to a query about shooting handloads. This is CYA policy for any gun manufacturer with a legal department.

As a shooter, one must educate oneself on the intricacies of internal ballistics....at least to the point that he will not blow his fingers off or ruin a fine firearm.

Yes, you can shoot 5.56x45 ammo in a .223 chambered rifle, but it is probably gonna be a little hard on the semi auto gas guns, and probably no problem in a bolt gun. In my opinion. And I have done it both ways.

In the gas gun, check how far the brass flies before hitting the ground compared to the .223 brass. That should tell you something about the velocity of the bolt as it hits the stop in the receiver. One should be able to figure it out from there. 8)

 

[Snake45]

Well, we know absolutely nothing about the knowledge or qualifications of the person answering the phone, do we?

Hi,

Well, we know the person answering the phone was sharp enough not to vary their recommendation from the company line!

"5. USE CORRECT AMMUNITION
You must assume the serious responsibility of using only the correct ammunition for your
firearm. Read and heed all warnings, including those that appear in the gun's instruction man-
ual and on the ammunition boxes. Using improper or incorrect ammunition can destroy a
gun and cause serious personal injury. It only takes one shell of improper caliber or gauge to
wreck your gun, and only a second to check each one as you load it. Be absolutely certain
that the ammunition you are using matches the specifications that are contained within the
gun's instruction manual and the manufacturer's markings on the firearm barrel." (Emphasis added.)

https://s3.amazonaws.com/savagefiles/manuals/Manual_110LESeries-112VarmintTarget.pdf

Ever call Ruger and ask about using "Ruger Only" handloads in your .45 Colt? I doubt you'll get a long stimulating discussion there, either!

Disclaimer: I, too, was once smarter than the people who make the guns, but no longer make that claim. So please don't expect me to argue w/ those who still do...

Rick C

What I meant was that the person on the phone could have been a temp, or a new-hire receptionist, or someone of that nature, who was given a "script" for such questions and told not to deviate from it. If he'd gotten an engineer or someone of that level on the phone, he might have heard, "Sure, shoot all the 5.56 you want in it, we know people are going to do it so we build that thing to take it, no problem." :wink:

 

[Snake45]

Yes, you can shoot 5.56x45 ammo in a .223 chambered rifle, but it is probably gonna be a little hard on the semi auto gas guns...

The original AR-15 and the Ruger Mini-14 were both originally engineered to run on GI--that is, 5.56--ammo. And to this day MOST of the mill-run, off-the-rack ARs are chambered 5.56, even many that say they're .223. You almost have to go shopping for a ".223-chambered" AR to get one, and those will be "match" type rifles in most cases.

Other .223/.556 autorifles, I don't know about (such as the various AK variants and Kel-Techs and such). But if I were making and selling rifles, I'd be damned sure they went out the door compatible with common USGI 5.56 ammo unless the customer specified differently. :wink:

 

[gerryb158]

Anyone ever run across a set of "5.56 mm" reloading dies? I think they may be rare. My RCBS die set, including a small base die, is marked ".223 Rem" but seems to work very well with 5.56 brass. So after the reloading is completed I guess everything is now .223? I only use the lighter (55 gr. and below) bullets so OAL is not a problem. This (reloaded) ammo works really well in my AR's and in my .223 chambered Ruger M77. IMHO the 5.56 vs. .223 "problem" has been resolved by RCBS (and others.)