41 magnum trajectory?

[COR]

In reading what some of you say about all this sectional density, trajectory tables, energy ft lbs, and ballistic analysis you'd think this was complicated...

1. Forget about the term "flat shooting", that's a riflemans game at best.

2. Pick up a 41 Magnum (or .357, 44, 45, etc) you enjoy to shoot

3. Find a good load that is accurate (whether handload or factory)

4. Shoot until you understand where that bullet will strike at given distances from that firearm

5. Keep backing up until you can't put all shots on a pie plate. Not some shots, ALL shots, everytime. Now that you know your effective range you can plan your hunts accordingly.

Don't waste your time thinking about all the numbers, cause that's all they are. Go out and shoot you firearm and forget all the internet "theory". Most folks that spend time arguing the numbers on the internet would be better educated by just burning some gunpowder and learning how to shoot their guns. Most folks can't effectively use a handgun past 50yds under field conditions when hunting anyway, so who cares what it does at 200yds?

All this info and 4 bucks will get you a Latte at Starbucks.

 

[5of7]

In reading what some of you say about all this sectional density, trajectory tables, energy ft lbs, and ballistic analysis you'd think this was complicated...

1. Forget about the term "flat shooting", that's a riflemans game at best.

2. Pick up a 41 Magnum (or .357, 44, 45, etc) you enjoy to shoot

3. Find a good load that is accurate (whether handload or factory)

4. Shoot until you understand where that bullet will strike at given distances from that firearm

5. Keep backing up until you can't put all shots on a pie plate. Not some shots, ALL shots, everytime. Now that you know your effective range you can plan your hunts accordingly.

Don't waste your time thinking about all the numbers, cause that's all they are. Go out and shoot you firearm and forget all the internet "theory". Most folks that spend time arguing the numbers on the internet would be better educated by just burning some gunpowder and learning how to shoot their guns. Most folks can't effectively use a handgun past 50yds under field conditions when hunting anyway, so who cares what it does at 200yds?

All this info and 4 bucks will get you a Latte at Starbucks.

I agree to that!

However, the question of sectional density comes up when a velocity comparison is made between two different calibers.

I do not think that a .41 Mg. will produce any more velocity than a .44 Mg. will when bullets of equal sectional density and equal pressures are used....on an average, that is.

The ballistic tables and even the handloading tables are not all than revealing when the difference between the two is 150 fps or less, because the variation between two guns used to gather the data can easily account for that.

Also, as Cor says, the difference in trajectory at handgun ranges is so slight, given two cartridges that are so close together in velocity, that it becomes irrelevant.....other, that is, than as an intellectual exercise. And of course if we are going to engage in intellectual exercises, then sectional density and ballistic co-efficient are just another component to be worried over.... :roll:

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Don't waste your time thinking about all the numbers, cause that's all they are. Go out and shoot you firearm and forget all the internet "theory".

When I am not shooting I would still be talking about guns. ...And of course there are differences in calibers, which we can measure, otherwise we would all be shooting the same thing. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Assuming comparable good bullet/powder choices can the 41 magnum shoot a flatter trajectory than either the 357 or the 44 magnums? Thanks, Dennis

Back to the original question. Jimbo posted some graphs, but they don't tell a good story by themselves and aren't really the sort of comparison Dennis was asking about.

What might be a bit more useful is to compare Maximum Point Blank Range. That is, the max range where I don't need to adjust my sight picture in elevation to compensate for range. Now, we have bullets, not lasers, so the point of impact will change with range using the same sight picture, so we need to decide the max amount above and below the line of sight we will accept as being "on target". For whitetail hunting, I like 1". For this discussion, I'll use that figure.

Dennis asked about comparable bullet/powder choices. For this I am going with max charge from Hodgdon data using H110. Bullets are .357 Nosler 180gr, .41 Sierra 170 gr, and .44 Hornady 180 gr.

Assuming adjustable sights and zeroing those sights to get the max point blank range, here's the figures I get:

.357 - 80 yds with a 70 yd zero
.41 - 100 yds with an 85 yd zero
.44 - 100 yds with an 85 yd zero

Of course, the condition of the firearm and skill of the shooter may well reduce these ranges.

 

[Lee Martin]

We may be splitting hairs here guys. Both are outstanding rounds and when loaded properly, the animal won't know the difference.

 

[Jeff41Mag]

Sectional Densities:

41 Cal

210 grain bullet: 0.178465

265 grain bullet: 0.225206

300 grain bullet: 0.254950


44 Cal (.429)

230 grain bullet: 0.178465

240 grain bullet: 0.186294

270 grain bullet: 0.209581

300 grain bullet: 0.232867

310 grain bullet: 0.240630

330 grain bullet: 0.256154

.41 cal 210 grainer is a standard 41 Mag bullet available from a variety of sources such as Hornady's FTX hollow point hunting bullet. The 265 grainer is available from TruShot bullets (google Laser Cast Bullets) and is a cast lead bullet with a large meplat (flat nose) for ehanced crushing power and penetration. The 300 grainer is available from who I don't know yet but have heard you can get em.

.44 Mag 240 grainers are standard weights available from Hong Kong to Zimbabwe to Paris France to Walmart USA. 230's I don't know but am sure they are available somewhere. 270 grainers and 300 grainers are Buffalo Bore Ammo. And BB might have them in additional weights over 300 as well but not sure. 310 and 330 weight bullets are available from Garret Cartridges and I believe the 330 grainer is at 1330 fps but you can check their site and see. It is faster than their 310 grainer which is also a bear load but designed to be milder to shoot than the 330 grianers.

All above listed sectional density figures were calculated to the 6th digit using the formula for sectional density.

Personally I am going to try the 265 grainer and see how much speed and accuracy I can get out of it with my Super Blackhawk Hunter with 7.5 inch barrel. If I get 1450 fps I will be happy, but I have to find out what it feels like when I pull the trigger. The gun will let me know. I think the .44 guys have more choices, but the ones available in .41 look good to me so far. I would like to know about that Mihec mould. I am sure I did not spell that mould name correctly, but can you two guys waiting on them tell me a little about them? They must be a good mould I gather from how you two inferred about them. Are they made with precision it seems? Top of the line quality perhaps? And are they single or dual cavity?

Thanks.

Jeff

 

[Jeff41Mag]

Sectional Densities:

41 Cal

210 grain bullet: 0.178532

265 grain bullet: 0.225206

300 grain bullet: 0.254950


44 Cal (.429)

230 grain bullet: 0.178465

240 grain bullet: 0.186294

270 grain bullet: 0.209581

300 grain bullet: 0.232867

310 grain bullet: 0.240630

330 grain bullet: 0.256154

.41 cal 210 grainer is a standard 41 Mag bullet available from a variety of sources such as Hornady's FTX hollow point hunting bullet. The 265 grainer is available from TruShot bullets (google Laser Cast Bullets) and is a cast lead bullet with a large meplat (flat nose) for ehanced crushing power and penetration. The 300 grainer is available from who I don't know yet but have heard you can get em.

.44 Mag 240 grainers are standard weights available from Hong Kong to Zimbabwe to Paris France to Walmart USA. 230's I don't know but am sure they are available somewhere. 270 grainers and 300 grainers are Buffalo Bore Ammo. And BB might have them in additional weights over 300 as well but not sure. 310 and 330 weight bullets are available from Garret Cartridges and I believe the 330 grainer is at 1330 fps but you can check their site and see. It is faster than their 310 grainer which is also a bear load but designed to be milder to shoot than the 330 grianers.

All above listed sectional density figures were calculated to the 6th digit using the formula for sectional density.

Personally I am going to try the 265 grainer and see how much speed and accuracy I can get out of it with my Super Blackhawk Hunter with 7.5 inch barrel. If I get 1450 fps I will be happy, but I have to find out what it feels like when I pull the trigger. The gun will let me know. I think the .44 guys have more choices, but the ones available in .41 look good to me so far. I would like to know about that Mihec mould. I am sure I did not spell that mould name correctly, but can you two guys waiting on them tell me a little about them? They must be a good mould I gather from how you two inferred about them. Are they made with precision it seems? Top of the line quality perhaps? And are they single or dual cavity?

Thanks.

Jeff

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Jeff, you spelled it right. Mihec is a machinist over in Slovenia who makes custom molds. I have the following of his: 432-256 (Keith style like the H&G #503), 432-200 HP, 452-297 (drops 322 gr with my alloy), 452-200 (.45 ACP SWC like H&G #68).

All the molds I have are brass 4 cavity, except the .44 HP, which is brass 2 cavity.

His website is http://www.mp-molds.com/. His molds are precise, a pleasure to cast with, and beautiful on top of that. The price is very reasonable. My 4 cavity .45 ACP mould cost about $25 more than ordering from a 2 cavity RCBS from Midway. The down side is waiting time. He does this as a side business and has lots of work stacked up.

I get mine through group buys on Cast Boolits. Here's a link to the mold we are waiting on:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=112772

The solid version has shipped. You might contact the honcho and see if it's not too late to get on the list for the HP version. I don't think those are in production just yet. Also, there is often a spare mold or two available, either because of order cancellation or over run. You can get flat pins to cast solid, or just flip the HP pins over. I flip when I cast the 200 gr HP .44's as solids. They come out at 225 gr as solids and cast great that way, too.

 

[Jeff41Mag]

Thanks Iron Mike,

I'll check it out and see if he has any .41 cal moulds on order. Might order one in .44 or .45 cal as well, given there is a wait time, as I will end up shooting those calibers as well. I already have dies for .45 Colt so maybe that would be the first choice after .41.

Jeff

 

[5of7]

I have one final thought on the .41 Mg.

I think one of the redeeming qualities to the .41 Mg. over the .44 Mg. is that it is just enough less punishing to the shooter and to the frame of the gun, that it is to be preferred in some cases over the 44.

It is indeed easier to shoot well and the thrust generated by the 41 is about 9% less than the 44 given 40K loads in both. (think S&W N frame here)

In the meantime it will kill just about anything that the 44 might be used for. Now I know, the 41 may not be a great grizzly gun, but when you get right down to it, neither is the 44.

 

[Jeff41Mag]

That's an interesting final thought, 5 of7.

On grizzly guns, I saw, on film (dvd actually) an Alaskan bowhunting guide pop a very large grizzly twice from approx 45 yds with a .45 WinMag. It is a 1911 styled gun and he hit the bear twice in the head, firing very quick and accurately. The bear dropped like he had been hit in the head by a wrecking ball. It was very impressive to see that. Those were head shots, not body shots, and from someone who has to be able to shoot well given the job title and location. Most dangerous game hunters I have talked to have told me that when a dangerous animal, such as lion, bear, cape buffalo, are coming at them, they have to turn the lights out (aka, head shot). And I asked them, "what about if it is just a 400 pound lion, can't you hit them with body shots with that 416 Rigby and stop em?" And the response was, NO, You have to turn the lights out if they are coming at you!" I will always remember that. This guy had 3 lions come at him at once, and lucky for him, it was not his first rodeo. I have not been in a situation like that with lion, multiple lions, or a single bear. Hopefully I never will. But I can't help but wonder what the best technique, or method rather, is for bear.

Jeff

 

[Jeff41Mag]

That's an interesting final thought, 5 of7.

On grizzly guns, I saw, on film (dvd actually) an Alaskan bowhunting guide pop a very large grizzly twice from approx 45 yds with a .45 WinMag. It is a 1911 styled gun and he hit the bear twice in the head, firing very quick and accurately. The bear dropped like he had been hit in the head by a wrecking ball. It was very impressive to see that. Those were head shots, not body shots, and from someone who has to be able to shoot well given the job title and location. Most dangerous game hunters I have talked to have told me that when a dangerous animal, such as lion, bear, cape buffalo, are coming at them, they have to turn the lights out (aka, head shot). And I asked them, "what about if it is just a 400 pound lion, can't you hit them with body shots with that 416 Rigby and stop em?" And the response was, NO, You have to turn the lights out if they are coming at you!" I will always remember that. This guy had 3 lions come at him at once, and lucky for him, it was not his first rodeo. I have not been in a situation like that with lion, multiple lions, or a single bear. Hopefully I never will. But I can't help but wonder what the best technique, or method rather, is for bear.

Jeff