41 magnum trajectory?

[COR]

Let's not hijack and turn this into a bear gun thread...That was not the OP's intent and there are PLENTY of arguments with 10 pages of posts each on that subject. Just search "bear" and pour yourself a stiff drink.

I grab .357's, 41's, 44's and 45's because I like to have choices.

The 327 vs the 350 engine reference is a great one and spot on!! That just about says it all.

For the sake of our collective sanity and respect for the OP...PLEASE do not turn this into a bear gun thread!!!

 

[Jeff41Mag]

So if you load a .41 Magnum for bear will it shoot flatter than a .357 or a .44 Magnum loaded for bear??? Just kidding, COR, just kidding.

Back to the main topic: does a .41 Magnum shoot flatter than a .357 or a .44 Magnum? Yes it does, according to reloading charts for the .41 Magnum that I googled, and I used that in part in deciding to get the .41 Magnum. The velocity advantage becomes moreso as barrel length increases, so if you are going to shoot a 7 1/2 inch barrel or longer, you can obtain the velocity advantage over .44 Mag reloads and I would presume over the .357 Mag as well, but I did not compare the .41 to the .357 Mag as I was choosing between the .41 and .44 mags. If I remember correctly, there were several loadings to get the 210 grainer over 1626 fps or faster, and possibly close to or over 1700 fps. What I will do if you are still researching this is find the link for the .41 Mag loadings for you and post it here.

However, if you are the kind of guy that likes the 4 5/8 inch barrel guns which are great for carry, then you will get more performance out of the .44 Mag with its heavier bullets. An observation I have made over the years, especially with rifles ( and it seems to carry over to hand guns as well) is that when you shorten the barrel length you loose more efficiency (Kinetic Energy, velocity, and I know how the 2 are related) with lighter bullets than you do with heavier bullets, for a given caliber. And the .44 Mag and .41 Mag, while not the same, are similar, or rather the .44 is only 19/1,000's more caliber, and has a slightly higher case capacity. If you want max killing power ( or penetration rather), Garrett Cartridges offers some very stout .44 mag loads with 310 gr and 330 grain bullets. You can go to Garrettcartridges.com and read up on them, just click on .44 magum. But read all his articles on penetration. I think he is spot on, but has a little bias in comparing the 45-70 to the .458 Win Mag (didn't use the same bullet in testing the 458 that he used in his 45-70 testing). Garrett does not offer loads in .41 Magnum, not currently. I think he should. His Hammerhead bullets have a very high sectional density for a pistol bullet, and they are "more weight forward" which aids in penetration and allowing the bullet to "go straighter when they hit flesh/bone without turning sideways".

I met a guy at the gun shop where I picked up my Ruger Super Blackhawk Hunter in .41 Mag, a Distributor Exclusive, and hurry if you want one, as there are only 33 are left, and they have everything on them you could want including SS, smooth cylinder, good looking dark wood laminate grips, 7.5 inch barrel, and a solid rib across the top of the barrel and it's grooved for scope rings, which come with the gun. Ok, so the guy I met there had hunted deer with a handgun over 20 yrs and is from the northeast (bigger deer than FLA) and he loaded 170 gr bullet to 1700 fps in his .41 Mag for deer. He said he never had to hit one more than once and got all the penetration he could want from any angle. He had a 7.5 inch barreled gun, and I am pretty sure it was a Blackhawk of some kind. So if you shoot factory ammo, I guess there is not much difference, but if you reload, you will notice a difference with the 210 grainers in .41 compared to the 240 grainers in .44 Mag. Caveat: you can load the 180 grainers in .44 Mag to comparable velocities to the 170 grainer in .41 Mag.

I hope this was useful, and check out Garrett Cartridges, if nothing else, for the info on penetration and how to get it.

 

[WESHOOT2]

IME there is no performance advantage for the 41 Magnum.
No matter how hard I tried....

 

[5of7]

IME there is no performance advantage for the 41 Magnum.
No matter how hard I tried....

I agree to that.

The only advantage to the .41 Mg is that there is less recoil involved when shooting bullets of standard weight, while being plenty enough gun for game of 300 Lbs weight or less.

The .357 is a little marginal for deer or hogs, but the .41 ain't.

 

[Jeff41Mag]

I would highly disagree with the above two comments about the 41 Mag offering no performance advantage. Especially with Westshoot quoting
'All my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo." And I also would not limit it's use to a hypothetical 300 pound animal when I know people that have killed buffalo with it, using 265 grain bullets with it, at velocities well over 1400 fps, and it is capable of higher velocities than that. American Bison cows easily go 1300 pounds on the hoof, and the bulls can go to 2300 pounds. You can't twist or bypass the laws of physics: the .44 mag is only 19/1000's more caliber than the 41, and with a slightly, very slightly higher case capacity, and has been used to kill every game animal on planet earth, including the African Elephant. If the .44 Mag can do that with 310-330 grain bullet reloads, then the .41 Mag is right in there with it, and the 41 Mag can shoot bullets up to 300 grains.

 

[Tommy Kelly]

Hey I even heard that Clint eastwood used a 41 mag instead of a 44 mag in magnum force. He couldn't handle the recoil of the 44 as well. GO AHEAD MAKE MY DAY.

 

[chris_]

I would highly disagree with the above two comments about the 41 Mag offering no performance advantage. Especially with Westshoot quoting
'All my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo." And I also would not limit it's use to a hypothetical 300 pound animal when I know people that have killed buffalo with it, using 265 grain bullets with it, at velocities well over 1400 fps, and it is capable of higher velocities than that. American Bison cows easily go 1300 pounds on the hoof, and the bulls can go to 2300 pounds. You can't twist or bypass the laws of physics: the .44 mag is only 19/1000's more caliber than the 41, and with a slightly, very slightly higher case capacity, and has been used to kill every game animal on planet earth, including the African Elephant. If the .44 Mag can do that with 310-330 grain bullet reloads, then the .41 Mag is right in there with it, and the 41 Mag can shoot bullets up to 300 grains.

I believe Weshoot is a commercial reloader, as am I. I don't offer that to make me any sort of expert, just that I have a reasonable amount of experience shooting, reloading and testing. I like the 41, I just don't see much that I can do with it that I cannot do with a 44. I think his point may be that if you have the time and a 44, you have not a whole lot of need to buy a 41 to get where you want to go. Want, well, that is another matter.

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

1. If you shoot only factory ammunition, you can shoot a .44 cheaper than a .41 (local retail prices in my area)

2. If you shoot only factory ammunition, you have a much wider selection with a .44

3. If you reload and buy your bullets, you have a much wider selection of bullets with a .44

4. If you cast your own bullets and reload, you have a much wider selection in bullet molds with a .44

5. If you compare like designed bullets with the same weights, the .41 has a higher ballistic coefficient than the .44. The difference is trivial and you need to do some serious shooting to see the difference.

Example (25 yd zero, 1600 fps MV):

.41 cal 210 gr Speer DeepCurl: BC 0.183, 4.69" drop @ 100 yds, 769 ftlbs @ 100 yds

.44 cal 210 gr Speer Gold Dot: BC 0.154, 4.9" drop @ 100 yds, 709 ftlbs @ 100 yds

Lower the MV to 1400 and you still have about a .3" difference in drop @ 100 yds and about a 35 ftlb difference in energy @100 yds.

(In handgun bullets, Gold Dot and DeepCurl have identical construction according to Speer Customer Service. The name presumes intended use. DeepCurl is hunting and Gold Dot is defense.)

Maybe, in decades gone by, the comparison in performance was not apples-to-apples, but was comparing commonly available factory ammunition. That could very well have been between different bullet designs, weights, and MVs. Comparing the .41 210 gr DCHP @ 1600 fps to a .44 240 gr DCHP @ 1300 fps gives arund a 3" difference in drop @ 100 yds. Just guessing here, though.

 

[Jeff41Mag]

Hi Iron Mike,

I wrote you a long reply, and the computer lost it. What's that about Murphy's Law?? So here's the short version. Keep in mind it was typed in a friendly manner, so don't let this concise letter be taken as adversarial.

Factory ammo is much more available in .44 than the .41, and cheaper, which makes the .44 more practical for most people. But I think I can shoot a bullet of the same sectional density faster in the .41 than I can the .44, and I plan on only reloading for the .41. I also think I can get the same penetration at a distance with the .41, possibly more. Testing will reveal this. My pistol has a 7.5 inch barrel to help squeeze out velocity. While there is a larger variety of .44 bullets available to the reloader in .44 than in .41, I think there are enough high quality choices available to the .41 mag reloader. As far as bullet moulds, I have not researched that yet, but I do know several bullet mould makers that will make a mould for me if I find a mould in .44 that I like but isn't available in .41. I think you can kill with a .41 whatever you can kill with a .44 Mag. It's just a matter of preference for me. I figure most of the guys on this forum reload, right? I'd like to see some hot and accurate .44 Mag and .41 load results, both on paper and on large game animals.

I plan on shooting the Hornady 210 FTX and 265 gr TruShot bullets. My gun will be sent out for an action job before I can load and test it. So it might be 2-3 months before I have any results to share. Attached is a link showing load data for the .41 Mag. The velocities are impressive and I would draw from that, there's enough wiggle room to find a hot load that is accurate, and still be moving fast even if not at the max load:

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=41%20Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

Jeff

 

[Iron Mike Golf]

Jeff,

Good discsussion. Most of my points were the practicalities impacting on caliber choice for different levels of "enthusiasm". If you're dedicated to wringing out the loads, then I think you won't find a whole lot of difference in external ballistics.

For the same bullet weight, the .41 cal will have a higher sectional density, which aids terminal ballistics. You can expect a slight improvement in ballistic coefficient to go along with that, which translates into a small improvement in external ballistics. It's just that (at least my) group size is far greater than the difference in bullet drop. I think that for external ballistics, it's a wash. You can find/make a load in either caliber that will do what you want.

I really think you will find more difference in performance due to bullet design than bullet dimension.

On a personal note, I own and shoot both, as well as .45 Colt. I am waiting for a Mihec mold in .41 and will have a lot of fun working up loads for that.

 

[Jeff41Mag]

Hi Chris,

Yeah, I think what you can do with one, you can do with the other, if you reload, with a few differences between the two. The .41 might be faster with the same sectional density bullet.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

according to http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

If you look at a max charge of H-110 and a standard weight bullet (210gr) for the .41magnum it clocks in at 1631fps.

The .44magnum with a max charge of H-110 and a standard weight bullet (240gr) clocks in at 1522fps

OK that's it. The 41 Magnum shoots faster and flatter, but not by much. :shock: :shock:

...Jimbo

 

[chris_]

I am waiting for a Mihec mold in .41 and will have a lot of fun working up loads for that.

You and me both, buddy.

 

[WESHOOT2]

I would highly disagree with the above two comments about the 41 Mag offering no performance advantage. Especially with Westshoot quoting
'All my ammo is mostly retired factory ammo." And I also would not limit it's use to a hypothetical 300 pound animal when I know people that have killed buffalo with it, using 265 grain bullets with it, at velocities well over 1400 fps, and it is capable of higher velocities than that. American Bison cows easily go 1300 pounds on the hoof, and the bulls can go to 2300 pounds. You can't twist or bypass the laws of physics: the .44 mag is only 19/1000's more caliber than the 41, and with a slightly, very slightly higher case capacity, and has been used to kill every game animal on planet earth, including the African Elephant. If the .44 Mag can do that with 310-330 grain bullet reloads, then the .41 Mag is right in there with it, and the 41 Mag can shoot bullets up to 300 grains.

I am a retired manufacturer; WESHOOT2.

I spend a considerable amount of time in years past attempting to develop high-performance defense choices for the 41 Mag. I never spent time using over-heavy bullets due to instability through certain bore twists.

Regardless of desire, one cannot argue away the larger diameter of the 44 Magnum. The performance advantage remains.
Similarly, the 45 Colt loaded properly for appropriate platforms maintains its advantage over the 44 Magnum.




Did anyone else notice that humans may have recently discovered faster-than-light particles? Physics, baby......

 

[5of7]

according to http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

If you look at a max charge of H-110 and a standard weight bullet (210gr) for the .41magnum it clocks in at 1631fps.

The .44magnum with a max charge of H-110 and a standard weight bullet (240gr) clocks in at 1522fps

OK that's it. The 41 Magnum shoots faster and flatter, but not by much. :shock: :shock:

...Jimbo

But.....the 210 gr. .41 bullet has a sectional density that is the same as a 230 gr. .44 caliber bullet, so that comparison is not exactly fair.

 

[chris_]

according to http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

If you look at a max charge of H-110 and a standard weight bullet (210gr) for the .41magnum it clocks in at 1631fps.

The .44magnum with a max charge of H-110 and a standard weight bullet (240gr) clocks in at 1522fps

OK that's it. The 41 Magnum shoots faster and flatter, but not by much. :shock: :shock:

...Jimbo

But.....the 210 gr. .41 bullet has a sectional density that is the same as a 230 gr. .44 caliber bullet, so that comparison is not exactly fair.

This is a very interesting and enlightening conversation!

 

[DennisE]

Okay I admit my ignorance! What is sectional density? How do you calculate it? And how does it influencce a bullet's performance? Weeping at my lack of knowledge, Dennis

 

[Pinecone]

DennisE, Basically speaking, sectional density is the ratio (relationship) of a bullet's weight (in pounds) to the square of it's diameter in inches. This is usually given on a chart as a specific number for each individual bullet. A lot of variables are involved such as caliber, powder load, primer, bullet type, barrel length, type of action, etc. etc! However, for the purpose of sectional density charts, these variables are not factored in with the exception of bullet type. Bullets of certain sectional density for a "given" caliber supposedly have certain "penetration" qualities over other bullets in various size animals and gelatin material. This is a very "basic" analogy of "sectional density"!.......................Dick :wink:

 

[5of7]

Sectional density is calculated by taking the bullet's weight in grains and dividing that by 7000, then dividing the result by the diameter and then dividing that result by the diameter again.

Example: A bullet weighs 210 grains. Divide 210 by 7000 and you will get .03. Divide .03 by .41 (if it is a 41 caliber bullet) and you will get .0732. Divide .0732 by .41 and you will get .1785 that is the sectional density of the bullet.

Now if all other factors are equal, the higher the sectional density, the greater will be the penetration, and if the shape is the same (pointer or round nose for example) the higher SD bullet will also have a higher ballistic co-efficient which makes for better downrange ballistics.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

When loaded to max with standard weight bullets and H-110 I would like to know which one delivers the most energy at 50 yards and then again at 100 yards. I am betting it is the 44 magnum even though it would get there a fraction of a second later and would drop a fraction of an inch more. 8) 8)

...Jimbo