Why bother with an 03FFL?

.
Anyone you can get to answer a phone at ATF and give succinct, quick opinion on this or any other technical matter is not smart enough to bother with (answering phones, after all). IME, ATF will hem and haw for months before providing a non-answer. I suspect one of two things happened:

-your dealer lied about calling the ATF and didn't want to deal with shipping to an FFL03
-the ATF agent said Ruger's s/n lookup is not definitive for IDing date of manufacture, and your FFL didn't feel like dealing with it

The correct answer would have been to follow the law and ship the eligible firearm without contacting ATF about a legal FFL-to-FFL transaction.
I don't think he lied. He told me initially it was okay, but called me back the next day and asked if it could go to a regular 01FFL, which I arranged.
I've known him for years, long before he decided to start a gun store business. He's a straight up guy, and has gone above and beyond for my needs on numerous occasions.
I just think he received some faulty information from the ATF. And, he's planning to sell out and retire at the end of this year, and told me this in a private conversation a couple of months ago, stating that he was simply tired of running the place, and dealing with all the BS necessary in order to do so.
There's no hard feelings about the situation on my end.
 
It's correct. The Trump Dept of Justice will not prosecute this although the typical commie states are appealing. Lots of backup Google it. The formal process is summarized below. As it says it will take a while but since the DOJ is not prosecuting, an individual can and should ship







Lawful gun owners may soon be able to ship pistols through the mail.

On Wednesday, the United States Postal Service (USPS) released a new proposed rule in the Federal Register that would reclassify handguns as “mailable” under its regulatory standards. The USPS said the change was necessary to conform with a recent Justice Department Office of Legal Counsel (OLC) guidance that found the restrictions violated the Second Amendment.

“The Postal Service defers to OLC’s judgment as to the lawful scope of this criminal statute and worked in consultation with OLC to develop the proposed revisions to our mailability regulations,” an unpublished version of the proposed rule reads. “The proposed revisions expand the scope of mailable firearms compared to the existing regulations by allowing lawful handguns to be mailed under the same terms and conditions as lawful rifles and shotguns.”

The proposed rule represents a victory for gun-rights advocates, who have been active both in challenging existing mailing restrictions in court and in pressuring the Trump Administration to do more to advance Second Amendment rights. In practical terms, it could soon make it easier for regular gun owners to transport the most commonly owned type of firearm.

For nearly a century, federal law has largely barred the mailing of handguns and other “concealable” firearms through the USPS for most citizens, with limited exceptions for law enforcement service or licensed dealers and manufacturers. Most private carriers, meanwhile, have since adopted their own policies of refusing to ship firearms for private citizens. That has left gun owners wishing to send and receive handguns reliant on licensed dealers to act as shipping middlemen, often for an additional fee.

Under the proposal, “lawful” handguns would be removed from those restrictions while other “concealable” firearms, such as those regulated under the National Firearms Act, would continue to be classified as “nonmailable” for non-authorized entities.

The proposed change comes after Gun Owners of America (GOA) challenged existing federal handgun mailing restrictions last July in a case called Shreve v. USPS. Ben Sanderson, the group’s deputy director of federal affairs, told The Reload that the proposed rule does not go far enough because it does not extend to short-barreled rifles or suppressors. He added that the group would continue pursuing its lawsuit.

“Gun Owners of America has only preliminarily reviewed the proposed rule, but we do not believe it delivers a full victory for the Second Amendment, as our lawsuit Shreve v. USPS intends to,” he said. “This latest proposed USPS rule would allow handguns to be mailed through the postal service, but spins a complex web of regulations with which gun owners must comply.”

Six months after GOA’s suit was first filed, the Justice Department OLC issued a memorandum opinion that sided with the group’s position, at least as applied to handguns.

“Section 1715 of title 18, U.S. Code, is unconstitutional as applied to constitutionally protected firearms, including handguns, because it serves an illegitimate purpose and is inconsistent with the Nation’s tradition of firearm regulation,” Assistant Attorney General T. Elliot Gaiser wrote in the January opinion. “The Department of Justice may not, consistent with the Constitution, enforce section 1715 with respect to constitutionally protected firearms.”

Gaiser’s opinion also honed in on the practical difficulties that current mailing restrictions can have on handgun owners, including possibly exposing them to legal jeopardy when they travel. He noted that somebody flying from California to Vermont with a properly stored and declared handgun, but who got diverted to New York City, could be arrested for illegal possession if they took possession of their checked luggage. He also said someone driving from Wisconsin to Michigan who stops in Chicago for two days with their gun could also face arrest since federal traveler’s protections only apply to continuous trips.

“In these cases (and many others like them), a person has no ability to travel with a firearm, leaving shipment of the handgun to a destination as the only viable method of transportation,” Gaiser wrote. “But the person cannot use a common or contract carrier to ship himself the handgun because, currently, the large common carriers that deliver parcels refuse to ship firearms for private citizens. And section 1715 forbids mailing the handgun. The Postal Service’s ban on mailing handguns thus stifles the legitimate transportation and carriage of handguns for self-defense or any other lawful purpose.”

The proposed rule is not yet a formal legal change. Once published, the USPS will first have to accept public comments on the proposal. The agency encouraged commenters to focus on implementation issues rather than on the legal merits of the rule change.

“As noted, the Postal Service defers to OLC’s judgment as to the lawful scope of this criminal statute and worked in consultation with OLC to develop the proposed revisions to our mailability regulations,” the proposal reads. “Comments regarding the merits of OLC’s opinion, including the scope of firearms that are mailable and nonmailable under the Second Amendment, are therefore outside the scope of this rulemaking. Comments on all other aspects of the proposed changes, and in particular the clarity and understandability for users of the mail, are appreciated.”

After the public comment period ends, the Postal Service will review and address the input it received before issuing a final rule with an effective date. The process will likely take months to complete.

The concealed carry thing in the post office apparently does not currently apply to everyone. It is a injunction of relief granted only to the plaintiffs. I thought it said in three states, but the internet search says nation wide, and only members of GOA.

The mailing thing was mentioned in the same article, and may be limited to the plaintiffs, but the big thing is that they put no deadline on USPS to begin or create a shipping program for firearms. And USPS has dug its heals in to overturn the concealed carry thing, so they are going to be dragged kicking and screaming to to both of those only after all appeals are exhausted.

And we'll pay for their legal effort through higher postage rates.
 
In NYS, we cannot even buy/receive AMMO direct to our homes. ALL ammo purchases in NYS must go thru an FFL AND be "validated" by a background check for EACH purchase. We have to pay $2.50 for each background check. The background checks are no longer performed by the Fed.; they are all completed thru the NYS po po.
Needless to say FIREARMS are even more strictly (and expensively) controlled.

J.
 
In NYS, we cannot even buy/receive AMMO direct to our homes. ALL ammo purchases in NYS must go thru an FFL AND be "validated" by a background check for EACH purchase. We have to pay $2.50 for each background check. The background checks are no longer performed by the Fed.; they are all completed thru the NYS po po.
Needless to say FIREARMS are even more strictly (and expensively) controlled.

J.
They told us when it was coming, so we had time to prepare. I personally went to 5 WMs 2 days in a row and bought every box of rimfire that they had in stock.

For those that did not prepare, I hear that the shops in PA close to the NY border are very accommodating, though their price is not accommodating.

Bad news, good news, components still are not regulated (oops, sorry, don't tell anybody I said that, maybe they forgot)
 
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anything older than 50 years is C&R eligible

how do you know it was 56 year sold? The 50 year rules still applies and is unchanged. It needs to be original... If it had the safety conversion it probably would not qualify

I don't a recall a statutory requirement that the gun be unmodified. Citation please?
 
Thank you. That's interesting. So a gun that's been refinished or has new grips loses C&R status.
This has been a gray area for a while. I think the consensus was that substantial changes are an issue, but switching grips, refinishing, etc. are not. Wouldn't think an OM safety conversion would disqualify. Think SKS in plastic stock with 30 round magazine or Mosin Nagant in tacticool kit.
 
This has been a gray area for a while. I think the consensus was that substantial changes are an issue, but switching grips, refinishing, etc. are not. Wouldn't think an OM safety conversion would disqualify. Think SKS in plastic stock with 30 round magazine or Mosin Nagant in tacticool kit.
IMO since the safety conversion was a BIG Ruger program and the new design of the same model has the transfer bar I'd say it becomes a dis-qualifier. Just my opinion and unlikely to be enforced.
 
The concealed carry thing in the post office apparently does not currently apply to everyone. It is a injunction of relief granted only to the plaintiffs. I thought it said in three states, but the internet search says nation wide, and only members of GOA.

The mailing thing was mentioned in the same article, and may be limited to the plaintiffs, but the big thing is that they put no deadline on USPS to begin or create a shipping program for firearms. And USPS has dug its heals in to overturn the concealed carry thing, so they are going to be dragged kicking and screaming to to both of those only after all appeals are exhausted.

And we'll pay for their legal effort through higher postage rates.
It's not the GOA (Gun Owners of America) but SAF (Second Amendment Foundation) at least that's what I read on the internet.... and so we know it must be true... I actually joined the SAF after that and so far what I've gotten is another group that emails me several times a day.
 
Nothing positive to add here ……. But stinks for sure.
I think the eligibility requirements are printed on the ATF website though.

I don’t doubt your FFL but ……. I’d check website and maybe call them myself.
You should have shipped it yourself .... it is now allowed for you to ship a handgun via usps
Unfortunately not yet. USPS proposed the new rule on 4/2. Comments are due 5/2.
 
I have purchased numerous rifles using my 03 C&R license, no problem some coming UPS some via USPS, was actually out of town when one arrived USPS and the local post office held it for me. They said a lot of guns came through there. I am in a small Texas town so no big surprise.
I have purchased two handguns using my C&R the first probably 8-10 years ago came UPS, the other last year came USPS which surprised me. I called the dealer, in Georgia and they said it was legal. Got it no problem.
 
But what’s the chance an overzealous or under-informed USPS employee x-rays the package, sees a gun and flags or seizes it??
Just my opinion, but I think that would only be done at the receiving post office, and they should know who the shipper is and what they usually ship. Just last year I received a handgun from out of state via USPS, it was simply in a flat rate box, no special labeling as to contents.
 
100% original and unconverted OM Blackhawk.
Yes. The ATF got it wrong IMO.
Just wanted to know WHY it was determined to be ineligible to ship to an 03FFL?
We cannot answer for the ATF & you should contact them with that question. Go to the nearest office. If that isn't possible call till you get through. Surely someone has the answer to your question if there is one.
 
I saw this on an auction for a 1973 Ruger Old Army:

1775588996026.png


Found it interesting, it still says it can go to a C&R further down in the listing.
 
BUT the Dept of Justice has said they won't prosecute so there is zero risk for shipping postal
The question is will the PO accept it before it is official. You are supposed to declare it and under current reg only a FFL (non C&R) can ship a handgun via USPS. Do the current regs stop people from shipping? No. I've received handguns from non FFL's and a 01 FFL used USPS to send me ammo which is a definite no no.
 
But what’s the chance an overzealous or under-informed USPS employee x-rays the package, sees a gun and flags or seizes it??
zero

as usps already ships handguns from an FFL . The FFL has to fill out a form which gets stamped and filed locally and nothing on the form is specific to any shipment. I've shipped probably300 handguns via usps as an ffl in the last decade.
 
The question is will the PO accept it before it is official. You are supposed to declare it and under current reg only a FFL (non C&R) can ship a handgun via USPS. Do the current regs stop people from shipping? No. I've received handguns from non FFL's and a 01 FFL used USPS to send me ammo which is a definite no no.
there is nothing in the regs about an individual declaring a firearm is in the packaged.
 
I have my doubts one can get a straight answer for a question from the ATF. Say you discuss a problem with agent A and tells you,"You're perfectly legal and even furnishes a letter stating as such. Needless to say there will be a copy on file and if some supervisor sees it and disagrees with that is written? That could leave you in deep doo doo and even though you have a letter, you will be in the wrong and face conviction, fines and long term prison time. It happened to a friend of mine but he was lucky and just had to pay a $5,000 fine and probation for a couple of years.
Paul B.
 
Hmmmm . .. . I'm not a lawyer but that sounds like "not guilty by estoppel."

What does happen with ATF is you get a letter from ATF telling you that XYZ is legal but that letter only applies to you. If your buddy does XYZ without a letter, he can get charged.
 
This isn’t a C&R FFL problem but rather a problem of people who are uneducated about it or otherwise just refuse to honor it. If an 01FFL doesn’t want to deal with it; no problem. It’s your 01 and your business to run, just be honest and state that. But do not insult me and confirm your ignorance or bias by telling wild tales about it.

A couple of excuses landed on me include:

- No Ruger Single Six qualifies since that model name is still in production. Have to wait 50 years after Ruger discontinues that name.

- No handguns qualify. Only long guns. Handguns have to be mailed to a “regular” FFL.

- C&R holders can not use it out of state.
 
This isn’t a C&R FFL problem but rather a problem of people who are uneducated about it or otherwise just refuse to honor it. If an 01FFL doesn’t want to deal with it; no problem. It’s your 01 and your business to run, just be honest and state that. But do not insult me and confirm your ignorance or bias by telling wild tales about it.

A couple of excuses landed on me include:

- No Ruger Single Six qualifies since that model name is still in production. Have to wait 50 years after Ruger discontinues that name.

- No handguns qualify. Only long guns. Handguns have to be mailed to a “regular” FFL.

- C&R holders can not use it out of state.
WOW, those people really do not have a clue do they?? If they are a 01 FFL, and are telling people that, I would really wonder if they read/study/understand the ATF rgeulations and state and federal laws. I would stay far, far away from them. Jeez, what maroons :rolleyes:
 
I wanted to use my C&R to buy a gun at an LGS, primarily because I'm cheap and didn't want to pay the state $5 for a background check. The dealer didn't want to take it as he said that the inspectors give him grief over C&R sales.
 
Most recent was on a completed deal. I was there in person. Paid cash, gave him my FFL and got the gun.
I asked for a copy of his FFL and he refused. Said he doesn’t hand those out to civilians cause they can be used for illegal purchases. ( Good grief what a moron! )

Told him I have a log book and rules just like his and swapping copies is how it goes or I’ll need a refund and cancel the deal.

To his credit, he disappeared into his office a few minutes and returned with his copy I needed for my records. Just disappointing that I should have to teach a 01 holder and formal gun dealer with a retail store how it works.

When my friend Dick suggested I get a C&R many years ago he warned me to prepare for that. He was correct.
 

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