Trusting your Life to Advanced Technology

[SAJohn]

The post on smart guns made me think of this: automated car breaking is now becoming available in new high levels cars. I'm certain that Governments (especially ours) will soon require that this safety feature be required on all new cars.

How many of you want your car to decide that a situation demands it to slam on full brakes?

 

[Dan in MI]

There's a whole list of things cars can do, or already do, I do not want them doing.

I'm biting my tongue (fingers?) to keep from giving examples. I think I want to stay employed.

 

[Arthr Itis]

The government loves smart tech on cell phones in your car to track your every movement.

 

[coach]

I had a rental and in some interstate traffic at 70 mph I did close a little fast to the car in front of me and the car braked on its own. It wasn't a full slam on the brakes, but just about what I was going to do to slow down. It just beat me to it by a second or so. Not sure I want it in my car, but if I had been distracted at all I probably would have hit the car in front of me. I drive enough in heavy traffic enough to know my attention can wander at times and I never text or look at my phone when I drive.

 

[contender]

I agree that the stuff they are putting in autos now is NOT always what I want. This auto-braking stuff,,, as well as many other "features" are intrusive & do not account for my driving ability. While I'm not perfect,,, I feel I can handle many bad situations better than a computer. (Think snow, ice & immediate issues popping up.) Sorry government,,, NOT for me.

 

[Precision32]

Neither one of my cars have any computers on them. I won't have one.

 

[Mobuck]

If you can't pay attention well enough to know when to apply the brakes, you shouldn't have a license.

 

[pisgah]

I've been buying cars for 47 years. Every one of them has had automatic breaking at some point, so what's new? And sometimes, it's even the brakes that break. :wink: :lol:

 

[Don Lovel]

Out here I would be afraid a tumbleweed would set off the braking and a potato truck would run over me from behind

 

[blume357]

Keep in mind, don't know when it started, but all autos have a black box on them that records everything that is going on while the engine is running.... including your breaking, speed, and turning.... if you are in an accident 'they' can get a warrant to retrieve the information. But at least they do have to get a warrant.... but I bet there is a way to ask you if they can 'check out' your car and get around that.

 

[wizofwas]

I had a good job way back in the days at Government Motors (back then it was known as Generous Motors). One reason I didn't mind taking a leave from the place knowing that I might not get back in (I didn't) was the fact that even back in the early 70's I saw that the Government was encroaching into the business of running the car companies.

 

[Mobuck]

"Keep in mind, don't know when it started, but all autos have a black box on them that records everything that is going on while the engine is running.... including your breaking, speed, and turning.... if you are in an accident 'they' can get a warrant to retrieve the information. But at least they do have to get a warrant.... but I bet there is a way to ask you if they can 'check out' your car and get around that."

I can only imagine what the "authorities" would find if they tried to "check out" the black box in my old farm pickup. It's hit 3 deer accidentally, a couple of cows intentionally, had an unknown number of panic stops to either miss deer or trying to stop to shoot coyotes, and once when the fuel pump was acting up, I did a shut off and restart while rolling down the highway @ 45 mph and jammed the steering causing the vehicle to run off the road, jump the grader ditch and almost hit the fence before I could get it restarted and drive back onto the road.

 

[Dan in MI]

Neither one of my cars have any computers on them. I won't have one.

How old are your cars?

 

[Captain America]

I believe the Collision Avoidance System has been perfected by Volvo...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IBCr-XBWZaQ

 

[Fox Mike]

ABS, avoidance braking, park by itself, and many of the other "safety" features and conveniences that are presently on cars, they can leave in the showroom as far as I am concerned. ABS nearly got me "T"boned. I needed to stop NOW! It took a bit longer. Took me through an intersection, that a guy had decided to run the red light on his side and I saw just in time..I thought. Why he missed me I don't know. When I drive I am driving, not looking around, holding conversations, shaving, drinking, or talking on my phone.

 

[Dan in MI]

FM, I have to say this, ABS is different than autonomous braking.I also have to differ on the results of your near miss.

I have a taken a bunch of advanced drivers courses. ABS works. I didn't believe it either, but it has been proven to me time and again in class. Multiple times I have run various scenarios with and without ABS to prove it.

The first to come to mind is you are driving down the center lane of a three lane rd with a traffic signal above each lane. All are green. At an unknown point all but one turn red and you have to brake and manuever the car into the remaing green lane. They flip the switch at the absolute last second. With non ABS you jam on the brakes cut the wheel and run over the divider cones. With ABS you jam on the brakes cut the wheel and make a sweet high speed manuever into the correct lane.

Another is just a straight braking procedure. Curising down the lane with a green light and they switch it to red. You pounce on the brakes to a stop. ABS wins every time. Even though pumping the brakes may show improvement over non ABS only, but ABS always wins easily.

I should add these procedures are done at 50-60 MPH.

The coolest part about ABS is that it allows steering while braking. You can actually manuever while under full brakes.

But again this is not an autonomous feature that we cannot control. It just helps us do what we want better.

 

[gunzo]

20 years from now, how will anyone be able to afford to take the risk & buy a used vehicle. All the above mentioned gadgets will be outdated, problematic, or completely disable the unit, not to mention compounded safety issues..... a maintenance & financial nightmare!
Probably just what the manufacturers have been striving for, for a long time............... you buy new, & when the warranty expires, have the car crushed & buy another new one.

 

[Dan in MI]

20 years from now, how will anyone be able to afford to take the risk & buy a used vehicle. All the above mentioned gadgets will be outdated, problematic, or completely disable the unit, not to mention compounded safety issues..... a maintenance & financial nightmare!
Probably just what the manufacturers have been striving for, for a long time............... you buy new, & when the warranty expires, have the car crushed & buy another new one.

This^


We are very close already. Becasue of the way the computers interact, things that didn't matter if broken now may have an impact on something you need. Some signal that used to be in the engine controller is now in the brake controller, or some other controller. When that controller dies the engine no longer gets that signal and BAM you have to fix something you don't need, or want, to keep the car running properly.

 

[Ruger1441]

I kind of worry about people forgetting to drive and let the car do it for them. That way the can tex more and pay less attention (if possible) to what is going on aroun them.

 

[Precision32]

Neither one of my cars have any computers on them. I won't have one.

How old are your cars?

One is an '88 Mercedes 350 SE, the other is a '91 Mercedes 350 SDL.

 

[SamV]

"Keep in mind, don't know when it started, but all autos have a black box on them that records everything that is going on while the engine is running.... including your breaking, speed, and turning.... if you are in an accident 'they' can get a warrant to retrieve the information. But at least they do have to get a warrant.... but I bet there is a way to ask you if they can 'check out' your car and get around that."

I can only imagine what the "authorities" would find if they tried to "check out" the black box in my old farm pickup. It's hit 3 deer accidentally, a couple of cows intentionally, had an unknown number of panic stops to either miss deer or trying to stop to shoot coyotes, and once when the fuel pump was acting up, I did a shut off and restart while rolling down the highway @ 45 mph and jammed the steering causing the vehicle to run off the road, jump the grader ditch and almost hit the fence before I could get it restarted and drive back onto the road.

Umm, well maybe you could use of few of the new safety features available!!

 

[Fox Mike]

FM, I have to say this, ABS is different than autonomous braking.I also have to differ on the results of your near miss.

I have a taken a bunch of advanced drivers courses. ABS works. I didn't believe it either, but it has been proven to me time and again in class. Multiple times I have run various scenarios with and without ABS to prove it.

The first to come to mind is you are driving down the center lane of a three lane rd with a traffic signal above each lane. All are green. At an unknown point all but one turn red and you have to brake and manuever the car into the remaing green lane. They flip the switch at the absolute last second. With non ABS you jam on the brakes cut the wheel and run over the divider cones. With ABS you jam on the brakes cut the wheel and make a sweet high speed manuever into the correct lane.

Another is just a straight braking procedure. Curising down the lane with a green light and they switch it to red. You pounce on the brakes to a stop. ABS wins every time. Even though pumping the brakes may show improvement over non ABS only, but ABS always wins easily.

I should add these procedures are done at 50-60 MPH.

The coolest part about ABS is that it allows steering while braking. You can actually manuever while under full brakes.

But again this is not an autonomous feature that we cannot control. It just helps us do what we want better.

There was only ONE place to go..straight ahead. I couldn't steer out of the way. He had to swerve to miss me. Had I been able to 'lock them up' I would have stopped two feet shorter. Perhaps it was the car, a POS Ford Contour, that had brake problems from the day we got it. That soured me on ABS. I can not remember the number of front brake rotors we had to replace due to warpage.

 

[Zorba]

Neither one of my cars have any computers on them. I won't have one.

This.

 

[Dan in MI]

I actually find it tough to believe '88 and '91 era vehicles don't have computers. (unless they are diesel's) Maybe not to the extent of current vehicles, but computers in some manner were being used in the very early 80's on most cars.

A quick search has shown Mercedes 300 series had computer diagnostics in 1990. I haven't dug far just for that.

Found a link to 1988 diagnostics. http://www.mbslk.com/files/artikel/r170_fehlercodes.pdf

Not trying to be a jerk, just letting you know these systems have been out there longer than you may think.

 

[SAJohn]

I wonder about the situation where you are on a two lane highway using one of the those center-of-the-road spots to make make a left hand turn across oncoming traffic. (A situation I face almost daily in a 55 mph zone.) If that automatic braking system sees the oncoming car and slams on your brakes you are in deep trouble.

 

[SAJohn]

I read a study a few years ago about the safety improvement of ABS. When it first became common rear enders did decrease but then later went back up. It turns out drivers trusted the ABS so much that they had, on average, decreased their following distance just enough to negate the benefit.

 

[coach]

I wonder where I can get a car without power brakes and steering, turn signals, defrosters and a radio. Sounds a lot like my lawn tractor.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

I wonder where I can get a car without power brakes and steering, turn signals, defrosters and a radio. Sounds a lot like my lawn tractor.

Cuba. Just go back to 1959.

I would like to see simpler cars that get good mileage without all the gismos. Cars like the old Dusters/Darts/Valiants or Novas/Chevells/Specials or Falcons/Fairmonts that have some of the features we need for safety and get rid of the rest.

 

[NikA]

The management of internal combustion before electronic control was an absolute mess. Just look at all the pieces in the air/fuel delivery system of an engine built before 1980. The best thing to happen to internal combustion efficiency was the implementation of sensors to control fuel delivery and spark advance. Anyone that's adjusted a distributor past setting it to the factory recommended setting or disassembled and cleaned a carburetor should be aware of this. These designs are essentially optimized at two points, idle and WOT, with all intermediate positions being a compromise controlled by a complex system of delicate mechanical parts that can fail or jam without warning.

As for other gizmos on the car, I don't mind them but I do object to not being able to drive without them. I drove a car with failed ABS for years due to corrosion on the sensors and never felt unsafe since I know how to maintain a safe stopping distance and how to apply braking force consistent with road conditions. If the constant ABS fault light had bothered me, I would have solved the problem with a piece of electrical tape.

If you're maintaining a pre-computer vehicle for any reason other than your personal enjoyment, I think you're wasting your time. I'm fairly certain that even the simple electronics in a points ignition circuit would be damaged in a hypothetical SHTF EMP situation.

 

[exavid]

I've owned a lot of motorcycles in my life. The last three had ABS and I'll never buy another without it. When you go around a curve and deer jumps out in front of you, you don't have time to think, just react. On an ABS bike it's a simple matter to dynamite the brakes and let the ABS do the stopping while you do the steering. Even on slippery road surfaces you get shorter stopping distances while still being able to steer. On a bike you not only can steer with maximum braking but the bike stays upright. If a wheel slides most of it's braking power is lost. ABS prevents wheel slide. An interesting experiment one can do if you have a smart phone and an accelerometer app installed is to see how much braking force and stopping distances you get by manually making a panic stop and then doing it with ABS. Even though you know when you're going to hit the brake which you wouldn't in real life the ABS will win every time especially on slippery roads with water, sand, leaves and such on them.

What works for a motorcycle also works with a car. You can get maximum braking and still be able to have full steering. The current generation of ABS is much better than just a few years ago. If you drive such that the ABS has to activate a lot there will be a slight increase in brake pad and rotor wear. That's a function and proof the ABS works. Locked up wheels don't wear the pads and rotors. They also don't provide much braking force either. If you think you're better than the ABS you ought to be driving Formula 1 or Indy cars.
A video by Bosch who sell ABS systems but still something to think about:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mKiTAcXK6M4