Ruger needs to Growaset and step up to the Big Leagues. 460&500 S&W or if they don't want to be copycats 350 and 400 Moleman(Legend) and 450 Bushmaste

[Hvymax]

Ruger has always limited themselves to pedestrian firearms. The Super Redhawk was ok back in the 1980's. It was almost even competition for the Dan Wesson. The 450 Bushmaster and 460S&W are very comparable. It wouldn't be Rocket Surgery to stretch one of the big revolvers to accommodate something more substantial. When was the last time Ruger really advanced anything substantial? I don't want or expect them to turn into Kel Tec but come on get out of everyone's ruts.

 

[beentheredone]

I would say that in not falling for those popular diversions Ruger is demonstrating good common sense. While undeniably faddish in some circles, the market for those chamberings is miniscule.

 

[Stantheman1986]

.480 Ruger.......because that caught on like wildfire. How many SRH's in .480 were sold , like 100?

Ruger will never make a gun in .500 or .460 S&W, not ever . Plus I don't really think S&W sells a lot of these anymore, the "shiny new" of having the biggest P-Nus at the range wore off, and people realized they really aren't enjoyable to shoot and are almost dangerous. The .500 had a habit of "doubling" from the recoil as it would force the shooter's finger against the trigger to cycle the action again. At least one person was killed like this. I fired my friends .500, no thanks. Don't need one. I actually gave him like 10 bucks for the cylinder full of ammo I fired because .500 is like $5 a round. So now I can say I've fired one. It's one of those guns that you're happy to cap off 6 through then hand back to the owner. A local indoor range offers one for rental and they instruct people to not lock their elbows out and keep a little "slack" so you don't injure yourself. They say people often rent it, and buy a box of ammo then try to return 49 rounds of the ammo because they don't want to shoot it anymore :D

If .454 won't kill it than I hope you brought a rifle. .454 makes good sense because you can use hot Ruger Only .454 loads in a SRH, or the Bisley SBH that was out for a little bit, but also use .45 LC obviously. .460 is just S&W's attempt to one up the .454 . .45 LC itself or .44 Mag can be loaded or purchased in "Bear Defense" loadings, there's no need for .500 or .460 unless you're one the few people who are actually hunting with one of those 16" S&W .460's

Huge, powerful revolvers marketed as "hunting /dangerous game defense" guns are seldom used as such and are mostly sold as range toys to people who think anyone else cares how powerful their gun is

Plus S&W already cornered the market, Ruger focuses on what they can sell to turn a profit. This is why they never tooled up to make a pump shotgun, other gun makers are already well established in that market.

 

[Thel]

Stantheman hit the nail on the head. Ruger is in business to make money. The cost of engineering, tooling, line conversion for production and parts inventory is going to be as great or greater than other possible projects. Where are the possible sales coming from as S&W already hit the novelty market?

 

[greenmtnguy]

Between S&W, BFR, I think the fairly small market for obnoxiously loud hand artillery is pretty well covered.

 

[the_leper_colony]

In some ways, Ruger might have been ahead of the curve with the .357 Maximum Blackhawk - I've always thought it was a shame they made so few of them. And they currently make big, heavy auto pistols, like the various "Chargers". I'm really not expecting anything, but I suppose they could combine the two concepts, and produce some kind of new "Charger" chambered for the 350 Legend; unlike .357 Max, you can find reasonably priced 350 ammo almost everywhere (and that might also be true for the 400 Legend when it comes out). Some kind of non-AR big-bore Charger might sell. Who knows?

As always FWIW, IMHO, YMMV, etc., etc.
:)

 

[contender]

Stantheman has made some very valid points.

Ruger is in the business to make money. As such,, they will make what sells in a large quantity, AND at a reasonable price for the "average guy" to afford.

They are still behind in production due to the covid-19 issues that left them with a LOT of employees out because of it. Trying to engineer, tool up & produce a new design when their resources are needed elsewhere is not good business sense.
Look at the .30 Super. Where are the barn burning sales? Where is the ammo?
And yes,, ammo availability is a big part of market decision making.

Heck, they've invested a lot into re-doing the Marlin line & a LOT of people are still wanting more of those guns. That was a good business move.

I don't see them going after a niche market.

And to the low quantity of .357 Maximums,, blame a gun writer, and folks trying to use light bullets, fast burning powder, causing a bit of flame cutting in the topstrap. (Which, BTW, stopped after a certain point.) They pizzed off Bill & he decided to scrap the project.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Why?

 

[the_leper_colony]

Why?

Why not? Take those big .45/.410 revolvers as an example: I've never really been sure what they're designed for, but enough folks seem to be buying them that they've been produced by at least two major gun manufacturers. Ruger currently has Challenger/Charger-style handguns available in at least three different calibers/designs, and they seem to be selling - guessing folks use them for plinking, or maybe self defense? I've even seen .308 'AR10' type pistols advertised for sale, but can't picture ever using one myself.

As @Thel and @contender noted, gun companies are in business to make money. If somebody thinks they can make money on a big-bore-blaster of type a, b, or c, maybe it will get built, and folks will likely buy them for reasons that make sense to them. Might a bolt-action hunting pistol in 350 Legend or .450 Bushmaster sell? Who knows - but Ruger could certainly make one based on the Ruger American action, without a lot of retooling or design work.

As always, IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc.
:)

 

[ProfessorWes]

Thank you, no. If I need that kind of power I'll use a rifle, not a handgun. I prefer my wrists unbroken, thank you very much.

Anything I need to do, in my part of the country, can be handled quite well by a .357, .44 Special, or a .45 (Colt or ACP, take your pick). Or when all else fails a 12-gauge slug, fired from a shotgun with a proper stock.

What little desire I ever had to try out one of the .460 or .500 S&Ws - miniscule to start with - vanished when I watched the late R. Lee Ermey touch one of the .460s off on his TV show. First time I ever saw The Gunny® cringe. You could watch his forearms ripple like Plastic Man's in slo-mo as the gun recoiled.

 

[dweis]

I think Ruger is on the right path. Its strategy is to innovate with popular calibers by making guns that offer advantages. The PC Charger and Carbine, LC P serit’s, the Secuity series, the Max 9 and its dedicated optic. In invests in developing imprvements rather than investing in developing and making guns for a small segment of the market price. That makes good business sense to me.

 

[the_leper_colony]

... I watched the late R. Lee Ermey touch one of the .460s off on his TV show. First time I ever saw The Gunny® cringe. You could watch his forearms ripple like Plastic Man's in slo-mo as the gun recoiled.

I knew a guy who collected Smith & Wessons - he didn't generally mind recoil, and often carried & shot a scandium-framed .44 Mag. He told me he had fired his .460 (probably with results similar to what you describe), but when he subsequently got a .500, it stayed unfired in the box.

I always figured the .500 would be a great cartridge for a carbine, but like a lot of the specialty rounds, the cost & availability of ammo is a major problem. I guess that's one plus for cartridges that are popular in AR15s - you can get ammo at places like Walmart!

As always FWIW, IMHO, YMMV, etc., etc.
:)

 

[contender]

There are folks who do enjoy bigger calibers,, heavy recoiling, and capable of presenting more power than really necessary. But the market, is smaller than what a big company can invest in.
Custom gunsmiths, smaller companies can adapt easier,,, and make enough to satisfy the niche market.
As dweis has mentioned,, investing in improvements, advantages, or things that sell to the masses makes more sound business sense for a company that has stockholders to satisfy. Just this past weekend, at my USPSA match,, a guy showed up with a Ruger PCC. He had shot mine,, and liked it. He's been using a CZ PCC for a few years now. This was the first match he'd tried with it,, and said he'd only fired a few test rounds through it before the match. A new gun,,,(to him) and he was VERY happy. I heard him say; "I may well be selling my CZ now!" The fact that his Ruger PCC can use Glock magazines,, was a big selling point to him. Innovation, adaptation, and going after the masses to sell a lot is smart business.

I've shot a few 500's in a few different guns. I'm not recoil shy, and I'd do it again. But would I SPEND money on such a gun? No. I have a few .480 Rugers,, and if I need a big bore handgun, I'll stick with that one. I also have a .454 Casull and it's loads aren't to it's full power potential. (It's a FA,, and the price was very, very reasonable. And I'm a sucker for the .45 cal stuff.)
I think if Ruger were to offer any variation of a .500,, it would sell some,, but overall, it'd be a marketing disappointment.

 

[s4s4u]

Why?

What he said ^^^

Ruger makes guns for the masses and those ultra big bores are niche at most.

 

[Bigbore5]

I own and shoot my big bores a whole lot. With full power loads. Why? Because I use them for exactly what they are intended for. Hunting large and dangerous animals that will turn the table and kill you.

That being said, I prescribe to John Linebaugh's philosophy about large caliber handguns and use his cartridges, namely the 475 and 500. Mostly the 500. These powerful guns should be carrying size. I have a Redhawk 500, a few Blackhawks in both cartridges as well as the 357max, and a couple BFR'S.

I do not like abuse. I don't do the commercial ranges, so have no desire to show off. All my guns have custom grips at a minimum, or entire custom grip frames shaped to my hand to help mitigate recoil of the heavy loads. It kicks, but in proper doses, is easily managed. The big bores are much more comfortable than the 454 to me and anyone else who shoots them, while providing much more reliable penetration and damage on game.

 

[Hvymax]

Why?

Why does a dog lick himself? Why did Honda make the Rune? Why do Women fart when they pee?

 

[Hvymax]

I own and shoot my big bores a whole lot. With full power loads. Why? Because I use them for exactly what they are intended for. Hunting large and dangerous animals that will turn the table and kill you.

That being said, I prescribe to John Linebaugh's philosophy about large caliber handguns and use his cartridges, namely the 475 and 500. Mostly the 500. These powerful guns should be carrying size. I have a Redhawk 500, a few Blackhawks in both cartridges as well as the 357max, and a couple BFR'S.

I do not like abuse. I don't do the commercial ranges, so have no desire to show off. All my guns have custom grips at a minimum, or entire custom grip frames shaped to my hand to help mitigate recoil of the heavy loads. It kicks, but in proper doses, is easily managed. The big bores are much more comfortable than the 454 to me and anyone else who shoots them, while providing much more reliable penetration and damage on game.

And some of us are still Recoil Junkies!!! Admittedly when it comes to scale a 44 magnum is to me what a 38 is to normal people. I touch off a few 5,000ft lb 12ga slugs and when I offer to share most everyone takes a pass. I guess they don't want to find out how attached to their Retina's they are.

 

[Bigbore5]

It's a lot of fun touching of a bullet that out weights a 12ga slug but hits the same or higher velocity from a normal size revolver.

 

[Hvymax]

What he said ^^^

Ruger makes guns for the masses and those ultra big bores are niche at most.

But it's like they've given up on Greatness. Presentation Grade #1's and Red Labels the Super Redhawk they pushed envelopes and achieved Greatness. They were at or near competing for the best of the best. Beautiful and functional firearms that competed with the best. Even if the pedestrian stuff is the bread and butter to just create a piece of firearm performance art for the sake of doing it to show that you are capable of more than mediocrity. Sure the Ruger American Competition is a step up from the standard American but it's not even really competitive with even mid grade Turkish Guns. Every few years you need a new Flagship to stay significant. I remember when the LCP was their "Flagship" basically a Kel Tec with quality control! It's still my go to micro pocket pistol my Max9 compares decently against the likes of the 365 and Hellcat but lacks the factory and aftermarket support. The 365 is a versatile Flagship package while the Max9 is a decent cruiser. Sure the Max9 with the new optic eats SCCY's lunch for less than some others which is a solid value. But is that all that's left?

 

[Hvymax]

My example of the Honda Rune. They lost $150,000 on every one they sold. But every last piece was it's own work of art that was also fully functional. They did it to show that in a World of Mediocrity Greatness is still possible!

 

[Bigbore5]

Ruger is not the Rugers anymore. It's a corporation. Bill can't just want to try something and order it done like he did repeatedly before he died. Now it's all about selling what's profitable more than what's innovative just because it's an advancement of a single man's vision.

 

[Hvymax]

Think about it. Give the Super Redhawk a custom shop stretched Mega Redhawk version. It wouldn't be Rocket Surgery to give it a stretch and beef it up and add some rails like S&W!!! When the Super Redhawk came out it was made to eat things that would take a S&W apart. That's what made Ruger Revolvers Significant. They were what others were doing on steroids. When the Super Redhawk came out it was the Flagship of revolvers. Only Dan Wesson and a handful of custom builders could even come close. Now seeing what the Super Redhawk was vs the model 29 now Ruger needs to do the same to the X frame. Even if they only make a few hundred and loose money on each one it will restore Ruger to a leader in the field. Look at when Ford beat Ferrari. I'm sure they lost money on every GT but at that moment they were the best in the world.

 

[hittman]

Yeah …. Stockholders will surely jump at the chance to piss money away all in the name of bravado.

Ruger only makes a couple SRH’s now that aren’t dealer exclusives. Those retail for $1500 or so. People whine about the cost of a polymer $400 9mm and have excuses to not send $25 a year to the NRA. :rolleyes:

This is why successful corporations think with their wallets and ROI, not what “looks cool”.

 

[Bigbore5]

The 500,460, and now 360 or whatever are not packable revolvers. They were a big hit when they came out, but their sales have declined massively since.

These gargantuan revolvers are not packable, that's why they introduced the short barrels. They even tried to market the snubby version in a bear defense kit. I've got one in each barrel length. Mostly for novelty, because even the snub is not comfortable to pack. Then there's the heavy recoil and massive muzzle blast to consider.

The market for big bore handguns is limited. The range ninjas can't look cool with a gun they can't handle. Serious handgun hunters want a quality gun that's big enough for the cartridges they prefer, yet comfortable to shoot and carry. People who have to deal with bears want power, but also controllability and a package they can comfortably carry as they go about their other business.

Ruger's rise to success was due to Bill Sr seeing a niche and filling it. There's no niche here for them. Magnum Research is already filling the big bore single action needs with a stronger, higher quality revolver at a price point competitive with a standard chambered Ruger.

The only way Ruger could be a force in big bores would be to reintroduce the maximum length frame Blackhawk chambered in the Supermag cartridges as well as the Linebaugh longs. This size frame would avoid the unappealing look of the long cylinder BFR the big Smiths are chambered in. The research and design were completed years ago for the frame and has been well tested and proven. The custom smiths have proven it's strength with the Linebaugh longs.

The 500 S&W is nothing but the 500 Linebaugh long with a smaller diameter bullet. The 460 is nothing but the 45×1.6"

 

[Hvymax]

Silhouette shooting has really stagnated since the 1990's.

 

[contender]

I agree that there are a group of folks who enjoy AND use big bore handguns. NOTHING wrong with that.
But, as noted,, it's about money & the gun is the avenue to that.

But I want to address a statement.
"When the Super Redhawk came out it was made to eat things that would take a S&W apart."

That statement is "kinda" true, but not the real reason it was developed. It came about because Ruger had a FEW Redhawks where the barrel broke off at the frame junction. They couldn't figure out why,, (initially) and the Super Redhawk was designed.
Once they discovered it was a combination of the lube used in assembly, combined with it sitting exposed to air over time,, creating excessive torque damage, they understood WHAT had happened. But by then,, the Super Redhawk was already a success.
I know this,, because according to the fine folks at Ruger I spoke with long ago,, shared that knowledge with me. And why did they share,, well my personal Redhawk was the first one to have the barrel break off. My Redhawk, in .44 Mag,, had not been abused,,, and I had excellent loading records, to show them what it had digested.
Apparently,, during assembly,, a rack of barrels,, would all get lubed,,, then assembly would start. It was discovered that if a lubed barrel was left to sit for a few weeks (during a semi-annual shut-down) the properties changed. When production resumed,, nobody realized this. They would assemble & torque the barrels,, and they would do ok,, for a while. Only a handful experienced the separation like I had.

Ruger strives to produce top quality handguns. The LCP,, while it may LOOK somewhat like a Kel-Tec,, it's not like one. Better engineering,, internal extractor, & overall much better quality. PLUS,, they can build enough to meet demands. Again,, this info comes directly from a few of my conversations with Ruger folks.

Ruger management really looks at the market,, and understand that while they COULD develop many products,, and often much better than expected,, they must justify the expenses of that development, AND show a good profit by selling a LOT of product.

 

[Hvymax]

I kinda miss the 70's and 80's IHMSA scene. I was one of the Dan Wesson Mad Scientists. Me and a few of my friends would order barrel blanks with various cuts and twist rates using Betamax cameras to analyze the muzzle and cylinder gap flashes. Working up loads for each barrel etc. Good times. I'm getting ready to venture back into the 12ga from hell game. Sadly Ed Hubel died a few years ago. He figured out if you treat slugs like Nitro Express rifles you can get crazy power with lower chamber pressures. The big problem has always been igniting such powders. Anything short of a 50BMG primer couldn't reliably ignite them necessitating things like (Hide the Children!!!) Duplex loads!!! Anyone who remembers America remembers that occasionally somebody would blow themselves up. But then you could get dynamite and caps at the hardware store.

 

[GasGuzzler]

Why not?

Because it makes no sense. Simple.

Yeah …. Stockholders will surely jump at the chance to piss money away all in the name of bravado.

Said in jest of course but no, it's a business not a frat party.

 

[Hvymax]

Because it makes no sense. Simple.

Said in jest of course but no, it's a business not a frat party.

But having a First/Best Flagship to lead the fleet is good business. Yes most of Rugers Flagships were the product of Bill Rugers ego but that's what drives real innovation. That drive to be the first and best. Being a middle of the road decent value is ok for safe business I suppose. We're more reliable than a Hi Point and Cheaper than a Sig. Yeah that's an ad campaign right there. The Max9 could be a flagship if they went the SIG 365 route with a few variations and support. For the last 20-30 years Ruger just makes a decent reliable gun for a while till the next model comes along and the old one is abandoned along with the mag design and internal parts. Kinda like cars. Look at the Glock and 1911. They have evolved but are just as significant today as they were decades ago. A 30yr old Glock mag will fit in a brand new Glock. Striker and hammer parts of various levels etc. I suppose Ruger has done this with Single Action Revolvers but come on. What would be wrong with an Ultra Redhawk maybe with interchangeable barrels and cylinders and enough rail to make S&W's custom shop cry?

 

[the_leper_colony]

Because it makes no sense. Simple.

A lot of things may "make no sense" to individual gunowners, including (as previously noted) .45/.410 revolvers, .308 AR handguns, and Ruger's Challenger/Charger model pistols. They are nevertheless produced, and purchased by the public.

As always IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc.
:)