Rifle just won't shoot

[seitz 555]

I'll start off by stating this is going to be a long winded post. I have a Mini 14 that just won't shoot. When I got it, I was well aware of the Mini's reputation for not being exactly a tack driver, with out of the box groups being 5 to 9 inches common. But I thought I could at least get one to shoot well enough to cover the group with a snuff can lid at 100 yds. Boy was I wrong.

Here is my gun; Mini 14 chambered in 6x45 built by ARS out of Midland, Texas (they are no longer in business). It came with a synthetic Choate stock which was bedded by those folks I assume. When I would lock the trigger into the action it was very hard (required much more force than I thought it should), so I purchased an OEM Ruger stock for the gun. This new stock needed to be bedded so I completed that and let the bedding cure for 8 days.

I have loaded 55,58,60,62,69,70,75 and 87 grain bullets with various powders. Powders were Win. 748, AA LT-30 and AA2230 being the powders that shot best in the gun. The lighter bullets 55, 58 and 60 have shot the best, though not very good. Loads that have performed the best to date are 28 gr. 748 - 26.5 gr 2230 and 22.5 gr LT-30 all with either a 55 gr Sierra Blitzking or a 58 gr Hornady V-max.

The 3 or 5 shot groups are all over the place. First shot may be 3" low and left 2" next shot on the vertical centerline and right 1" nest two shot within an inch of the second shot and the last shot 6" high and 2" left. That pattern to some degree repeats itself every group. One exception is the 1 or 2 shots that are very far off might come at any time in the group. It may be the middle shots that go wild or the last or first ones, no real pattern.

I was in hopes that a custom barrel would perform much better than this one has.

Any suggestions you could offer would be greatly appreciated.

 

[hittman]

How did yours shoot right out of the box, brand new, without modifications?

Maybe it's time to turn the clock back on the mods that clearly haven't worked.

 

[the_leper_colony]

...The 3 or 5 shot groups are all over the place. First shot may be 3" low and left 2" next shot on the vertical centerline and right 1" nest two shot within an inch of the second shot and the last shot 6" high and 2" left. That pattern to some degree repeats itself every group. One exception is the 1 or 2 shots that are very far off might come at any time in the group. It may be the middle shots that go wild or the last or first ones, no real pattern...

You've probably already done this, BUT... if it was my rifle, based on previous lessons learned, I would start by checking the scope rings and bases (ask me how I know).

As always IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc.

 

[seitz 555]

hitman,
I didn't own the rifle when it was in it's original condition. My reference to out of the box groups was from what I had read.

the_leper_colony,
Yes, scope rings and bases are tight. I found that problem from my first couple groups.


Each time I would find what I thought would be an improvement, it turns out to be a pipe dream.

 

[hittman]

Make it original again.Start from scratch.
Or, trade it for a new one, cut your $$ losses.

 

[Hvymax]

Maybe whatever wrecked the stock could have bent the barrel as well. Most barrels have a level of thermal distortion which is why it's so important to sight hunting guns with a clean cold barrel and fire a few sighter shots to warm the barrel up for a match. If you can swap back the stock barrel or a known good barrel that might be a good start a Krieger with 1:7 and some 68-72gr bullets and a decent stock that doesn't bend and twist with the relative humidity should give you the absolute maximum the design is capable of. You might want to consider an F Class AK47 as a more viable option?

 

[Mobuck]

"Here is my gun; Mini 14 chambered in 6x45 built by ARS out of Midland, Texas"
"I have loaded 55,58,60,62,69,70,75 and 87 grain bullets with various powders."
What is the barrel twist rate? What are the chamber dimensions for leade/throat and shoulder vs your handloads? I ask because the 6x45 is basically a wildcat round w/o much factory ammo.
We have a 6x45 AR upper purchased years ago as a kids' deer hunting rifle. It was a bit problematic and not really ever a 'tack driver'. I suspect this is the reason it was sold by the previous owner.
W/o doing a bunch of digging, I'm going to say I used a mid-range(from data manuals) charge and 87 grain Hornady bullets. Velocities were in the 2300-2400 fps range. Bullet choice was based on my extensive use of Horn 87 and confidence in it's performance at the slightly reduced velocities. These loads produced hunting accuracy out to the limit of young hunters' capabilities(under 200 yards).
I have no knowledge of the 'bedding' of a Mini but well aware of the bedding and such issues of the Mini's 'Daddy" (M-14). Shooters weren't allowed to break down their match tuned M-14's due to the very real possibilities of damaging the bedding in the process. The armorer did all the dismantling and cleaning of these specialized rifles.
The other thing I just happen to remember was our rifle shot a different POI when the first round was 'hand loaded' (vs being stripped from the mag and chambered by the rifle's full cycling). It was also a bit picky about neck tension.
Not much help but welcome to the forum.

 

[the_leper_colony]

...Each time I would find what I thought would be an improvement, it turns out to be a pipe dream.

The following comment might be more theoretical than practical, but because the barrel has been replaced, I'll throw it out there.

I've read that the Mini-14 was designed (& intended to be assembled) in such a way, that when the slide assembly is all the way forward, it stops short of actually contacting the gas block. Sometimes that's how they leave the factory, and sometimes apparently not, which is reportedly one reason some shoot better than others.

If the op rod/slide assembly is impacting the gas block everytime it goes forward, it reportedly will cause accuracy to go out the window, especially if the surfaces making contact are not square. ARS had a great reputation, but who knows what happened after it left their hands. It's possible that there's been enough wear on the moving parts to allow contact, or maybe the gas block loosened up at some point & was locked down too far to the rear, etc.

As always FWIW, IIRC, YMMV, IMHO, etc., etc.

 

[DGW1949]

My random thoughts;

"ARS out of Midland Texas" was Accuracy Rifle Systems....The present day "Accuracy Systems" out of Colorado may or may not have connections to the old ARS but do the same type of work regardless. Might be worth your time to give 'em a call.

I know a little about the Mini platform but you don't give enough info on the one you have for me to even visualize yours....and sorry, I don't know squat about the 6X45 cartridge.

Some things are built to sell and some things are built to use. Seems the ARS you bought was an example of the former. Like hitman said, "maybe it's time to turn the clock back on the mods that clearly haven't worked" and start over....If I'm reading your post right, " 3"low " X " 6"high " indicates to me that you've got an unusual amount of vertical stringing that is resulting in the gun's group-size being limited to a 9" circle. If that is indeed the case, you are probably dealing with more than one problem. It might be best to either have a qualified shop put the gun be put back like Ruger built it, or hand it off to someone who knows what they are doing to evaluate it....At this point, simply tweaking your ammo ain't going to help much.

DGW

 

[seitz 555]

Mobuck,
Barrel has a 1 in 9 twist. Don't have a way t measure the throat and shoulder, I just make my loads so they will fit into the magazines. My loads have been tilted toward the upper end of the velocity range, (3050 to 3250 fps). I will try some mid range loads and see if that makes any difference. I have also noticed as you say, the first shot out of a clean barrel had a mind of it's own.
the_leper_colony,
Other than inspecting the carbon buildup for a shinny spot, how do I check for the gas block hitting ?

 

[the_leper_colony]

...the_leper_colony,
Other than inspecting the carbon buildup for a shinny spot, how do I check for the gas block hitting ?

That's something I've never done - guess you might try some grease pencil, or something similar, on the front face of the slide assembly, let the slide slam forward a few times, and see if there's any transfer? Possibly something like permanent marker would work better, as it wouldn't add thickness, but might still show changes if the surfaces impact. Maybe someone with machining skills like @Hvymax might have some suggestions.

As always IMHO, FWIW, YMMV, etc., etc.

 

[Hvymax]

I suppose if it was mine I might try sleeving and tensioning the barrel. Piston clearance would be the biggest issue and it would have to be 2 pieces because of the gas block.
I would turn a step at the front of the chamber portion of the barrel to retain the rear of the sleeve and the other end would stop at the gas block. It would have to be relatively precise so the gas block can be secured while under tension. The forward sleeve would go from the gas block to the muzzle device. It might take a few tries to get the rear sleeve exactly how it needs to be. The gas block pin should be too tight until you put about 50ft lbs of tension using the muzzle device. Then verify alignment and set the pin.
That's what the voices in my head come up with anyway. Tensioning eliminates the harmonics and almost all of the thermal variation unless extreme. This is how it works on a Mac11 barrel. No gas block in the middle though.

 

[NikA]

Could start by checking clearance with feeler gages and then use something like plastigage to check whether the same clearance is being maintained when cycling occurs.

I wouldn't entertain tensioning the barrel until other potential issues have been eliminated. That's an expensive or time-consuming project that might not do much if the basic issues are not addressed.

 

[Hvymax]

Here's the accuracy results at 100yds tensioned and untensioned. This gun really likes Winchester Lawman. The flyer to the right was my boresight shot. A few cranks over and that's the group. After that over 3 and up 4 clicks was dead nuts.

 

[Hvymax]

Could start by checking clearance with feeler gages and then use something like plastigage to check whether the same clearance is being maintained when cycling occurs.

I wouldn't entertain tensioning the barrel until other potential issues have been eliminated. That's an expensive or time-consuming project that might not do much if the basic issues are not addressed.

Actually the only expense is a piece of tubing. Unless you factor in the lathe, tooling, cutting oil, bluing solution etc then it might add up a bit. That's actually a piece of conduit on the Mac11. I did true up the ends on the lathe though.

 

[beentheredone]

I have owned 8 Mini's that I can remember. Some shot better than others, but the cheapest AR I have ever owned would outshoot the best-shooting Mini I ever owned, and by a wide margin. That's why I own 5 AR's and 'nary a Mini, today...

There are a lot of things to like about the Mini 14, but accuracy is not one of them.

 

[NikA]

Actually the only expense is a piece of tubing. Unless you factor in the lathe, tooling, cutting oil, bluing solution etc then it might add up a bit. That's actually a piece of conduit on the Mac11. I did true up the ends on the lathe though.

Expensive if you don't own the tools, time-consuming if you do and want to go past the prototype phase and get a finished product. Agree necessary materials are not that expensive.

 

[DGW1949]

From the FWIW Dept:
The gas block is what stops the forward motion of the slide. If anything is done to prevent contact in that area the result will be that the only thing left to halt the slide's forward movement will be the little nub on the right-hand ear of the bolt....Sooner or later, relying on the bolt to stop the slide will cause that area of the bolt to shear off. I've seen cases with the very early guns where the entire lug broke off....Yeah, I know that internet legend has it that Mr Sullivan himself referenced the slide/gas block interface as an area to play around with in terms of lowering vibration and that Mr Harris also championed the removal of all contact between the two...but as it turns out, the downside to doing that is creating a dangerous situation....And just as a side note, Ruger has redesigned the contact areas of the slide and the gas block on their Mini platform a couple of times over the years. You can note that the latest design still allows the slide to smack the gas block on the 580-up series guns, and that that particular rendition happens to be on what is a 2-MOA shooter right out of the box.

My points to all this is that the infamous "Harris Mod" is more wishful thinking than fact. Were that not so, don't you reckon that Ruger would have done that themselves eons ago?.....Plus, it creates a dangerous situation....All in all, not anything that I'd recommend.

Just sayin'.

 

[Actnbill]

Make it original again.Start from scratch.
Or, trade it for a new one, cut your $$ losses.

I agree.... Mini-14's are bringing such big money these days... ( like up to $1200 big )..... I'd find a factory barrel and let it go as a factory Mini.... then sell your custom parts separately ....... Then buy a basic AR platform and go hog wild with cheap aftermarket parts that will make it a tack driver.

I have had 10 Mini 14's in the past ( and a Springfield M1a ) and none have outshot my Ar-15's or Ar-308's

( that being said I have 2 mini's that I'll never sell either )

 

[DGW1949]

I have owned 8 Mini's that I can remember. Some shot better than others, but the cheapest AR I have ever owned would outshoot the best-shooting Mini I ever owned, and by a wide margin. That's why I own 5 AR's and 'nary a Mini, today...

There are a lot of things to like about the Mini 14, but accuracy is not one of them.

I knew someone would have to chime in about how "superior" the AR platform is in terms of siting at a bench and using it to poke little holes in paper....I guess this time it was you, so thank you for that....Hopefully that'll end the Mini-bashing and the whole tread won't go sideways.

Peace Brother.

DGW