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Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
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Feb 22, 2007
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...lets not forget that smaller cartridges with less powder volume require more precision than cases that use a large volume of powder. ...and no single powder measure is accurate with all types of powders. Some do better than others with different powders. :D
 

gtxmonte

Buckeye
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
1,073
Location
Alabama
TitanX said:
The most surprising thing I've learned is that you can have individual dies custom made to match the chamber of a SINGLE individual rifle.

Man, that's custom.
Yes sir it is. I have some rifles that have special chambers. Meaning myself and my Smith, had the reamer made like WE wanted it. After you fireform some brass, you sent that to Whidden Gunworks, Warner Tool, whoever and have custom dies reamed to your brass. Sometimes it does what you want, sometimes it doesn't. If not, you set the barrel back, make another reamer and try it again. The quest for ultimate accuracy never ends. Just depends on how far you want to go and nobody has EVER gotten it perfect. Even rail guns that take the shooter completely out of the picture, don't put 10 shots in one hole at extended range. Because no gun and no round will EVER be perfect.

Jimbo mentioned measures and that's correct. Some are better with ball, than they are stick and flake and vice versa applies as well. I have measures from Lyman, RCBS, Redding and Harrell, multiples of some
 

gtxmonte

Buckeye
Joined
Feb 1, 2014
Messages
1,073
Location
Alabama
The only way to be certain each and every powder charge in a batch of cartridges weighs the same is to carefully weigh them on a scale. Even so, many handloaders have discovered that a small variation in powder charge weight usually has little to no effect on accuracy out to the maximum distances they shoot, and for that reason they save time by measuring charges rather than weighing them.

In conventional benchrest competition, where targets are placed at 100 and 200 yards, top-ranked shooters customarily average less than 1/4 m.o.a. accuracy. They use the same dozen or so carefully prepared cases for each rifle and reload them between relays during a match.

Instead of weighing powder charges, they use precision-built measures to throw them. Ask one of those guys how much Vihtavuori N130 he is shooting in his 6mm PPC, and rather than giving an answer in grains, he will likely tell you what setting he uses on his Harrell or Culver powder measure.

Back when I bumped off a lot more prairie dogs each summer than I do today, I decided to compare the accuracy of ammunition prepared with weighed powder charges and those thrown by the measure of a progressive press. Several different powders and bullets were loaded in the .223 Remington. I shot the ammo in two custom rifles in .223 Remington, both capable of shooting inside half an inch at 100 yards. I also tried the loads in my rail gun.

Groups fired out to 500 yards revealed no difference in accuracy between weighed and measured charges. Some of the ammo loaded on the progressive press was actually a bit more accurate in the rail gun, but I chalked that up to fluke rather than uniformity differences in how powder charges were dispensed.

Benchrest shooters and varminters shoot small cartridges that burn relatively small powder charges, but measuring powder for cartridges with bigger appetites can work equally well.

Before a rifle built by Kenny Jarrett is shipped to a customer, it must consistently shoot three bullets inside half an inch at 100 yards. I used to visit his shop quite often and, just for the fun of it, occasionally accuracy-tested rifles for him. The powder charges of all test ammunition used in Jarrett's shop are thrown by RCBS and Redding measures. A scale is used, but only when adjusting the measures to throw the desired charge weight. Same goes for his line of custom ammunition.

For most of the reloading most of us do, powder measures available from RCBS, Lyman, Lee, Hornady and Redding are precise enough. Benchrest shooters usually go for precision-machined units like the Micro-Measure from Neal Jones as well as the Harrell and RFD/R from Sinclair International.

Benchrest competitors sometimes tweak the loads they are shooting between relays, and the custom measures they use have more precise repeatability of adjustment than some mass-produced measures. I started using a Jones measure during my benchrest shooting days and continue to use it today. With many powders it is not a whole lot better than high-quality measures available from other sources, but it does operate more smoothly and throws charges of large-grained powders a bit more consistently.

How a measure is used is extremely important. To throw charges with minimum variation, it has to be operated exactly the same for each charge of powder. If you bounce the handle hard against its stops on one charge and then operate it softly on the next, the two charges will likely vary more in weight than if the handle is operated exactly the same both times.

I consider a charge weight variation of 0.3 grain acceptable in the larger cartridges such as .30-06 and up, but a good measure, operated properly and filled with a smooth-flowing powder, should hold that to no more than 0.1 grain. When measuring extremely heavy charges, consistency will improve with some measures when two half-charges are thrown into the case rather than one whole charge. In other words, the handle is operated twice on a 40-grain setting rather than once on an 80-grain setting.

Finely granulated powders meter through any measure more accurately than coarser powders. This is why benchrest shooters use either ball powders or fine-grained stick powders such as Vihtavuori N130 and IMR-8208 XBR. Same goes for varmint cartridges.

Any time I don't use a ball powder such as W748 or A-2015 in the .223 Remington, I'll use a small-grain stick powder with Benchmark and V-N135. If H4831 and IMR-7828 are your favorites for the .270 Winchester, finer-granulated versions of those two powders designated H4831SC (short cut) and IMR-7828SSC (super short cut) flow through measures more uniformly than the originals and their burn rates are the same.

Digital dispensing systems capable of automatically measuring and weighing powder charges are available from Lyman, RCBS, Hornady and PACT. After the machine is programmed for the desired charge weight, a push on its start button or placing the pan on the digital scale causes it to trickle powder from a reservoir into the pan. In addition to being more precise with large-granule powders than a standard measure, it totally eliminates operator inconsistency in throwing charges.

To reach peak efficiency with one you may need to modify your loading sequence a bit. When using a standard measure, I charge all cases with powder before moving on to bullet-seating. Depending on the size of the charge being dispensed, a digital machine can take anywhere from five to 30 seconds to get its job done, so seating a bullet on a charged case while the machine is dispensing powder for the next one speeds up the operation a bit.
The above is a story from Layne Simpson...........
 

NikA

Buckeye
Joined
Nov 2, 2014
Messages
1,832
Location
Yrisarri, NM- high in the Manzanos
I would anticipate that you get more variation in your loading from the relative humidity in your loading and powder storage area that you will with a difference of 0.1 gr in a 40ish gr rifle load. Anyone who has dealt with hygroscopic chemicals stored is desiccators and the like should be aware of this type of variation.

However, I will disagree on the topic of the precision achievable with a mechanical scale. I bought my first scale used at as a result checked it against the electronic chemical balances at work for accuracy and precision. It is an RCBS 10-10 and was dead accurate. Later, while loading, I did an experiment to determine how much off the balance mark the needle would be for a charge that was 0.2 gr heavy or light. It's quite a bit and is now marked on my scale to let me know whether I should be concerned about a charge that is slightly off. With fine powders in my old Lyman 55 it is within 0.1 gr provided I am consistent. Even with coarse stuff like Unique it is rarely greater than 0.2 gr. I do trickle charges when load testing because it provides me with one less variable to be concerned with when comparing cartridge performance.
 

Jimbo357mag

Hawkeye
Joined
Feb 22, 2007
Messages
10,350
Location
So. Florida
TitanX said:
gtxmonte said:
Jimbo mentioned measures and that's correct. Some are better with ball, than they are stick and flake and vice versa applies as well. I have measures from Lyman, RCBS, Redding and Harrell, multiples of some

As a newbie, I'd appreciate learning what measures you use for what types of powder.

I have the Hornady measure that came with the Lock n Load AP, but am trying to decide what to get for use with my Rock Chucker (rifle reloads and other low volume use).
I have a cheap Lee not-so 'Perfect Powder Measure' that does real well with extruded rifle powders like Varget and H4895, and also does fairly well with coarse flake powder like Blue Dot or Universal, I think because it has a flexible wiper built in. Fine grain powder spills out of the sides of the measure.

I also have an RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure with a small cylinder that does real well with fine grain powder like H-110, Accurate #9, HP-38/W231 or W748. It does fairly well with flake powder but jams with extruded powders.
 

okie44

Single-Sixer
Joined
Sep 9, 2012
Messages
210
Location
NW Louisiana
dixie884 said:
All I know is, I like mine and it's worth what it cost, to me.


And that is all that matters.

Ford or Chevy? Blonde, brunette or redhead? Sweet tea or unsweetened? We can find lots of stuff we can argue about if we try! :D
 
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