RCBS Chargemaster
- Thread starter gtxmonte
- Start date
Why?.........This makes my 3rd one and I have zero issue with other two and don't expect I will with this one either. If mine works great and others have problems, I guess it's their bad luck. I bought my first one, because the guys at Accurate Shooter.com raved about it and they tend to not like anything. I agree with their findings. YOU don't want one, don't buy one............I was just passing along the savings to those who may
I love my chargemaster and the only problem was the annoying beep when it hit the right weight but I programmed it out and now it is perfect for what I do.
Big Old Boy
Hunter
I love mine never a problem works great!!
powder smoke
Hawkeye
Not big on electronic stuff, lived a long time without it! Just old fashion I guess.
Uniflo with a balance beam scale works great. ps
Uniflo with a balance beam scale works great. ps
I just got a small digital scale. I checked it against my ancient Herters beam scale and likewise old Herters powder measure. Those old tools are right on the money.
Unless I see a good sale, I'll just keep under-throwing my extruded powder loads with the Herters measure and then trickle charging to reach my load.
Unless I see a good sale, I'll just keep under-throwing my extruded powder loads with the Herters measure and then trickle charging to reach my load.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
gtxmonte said:
Hi,
It's getting deep in here again...
Beam scales, or balances as some have corrected me in the past, depend simply on gravity, arguably the most consistent force we deal with every day. The job of our scale, no matter how big, small, simple or complex, is to measure the effect of that gravity on a mass and give us a result of that interaction expressed as a weight, in one of several kinds of units, which in the reloader's case is the one we call grains. One can purchase check weights which trace back to THE official standards bureaus, and they don't change. So if one prefers a beam scale, as I do, and it checks out dead nuts against the check weights, as mine do (and the oldest, an RCBS 5-0-5 has been doing for 40+ years), it's done its job, and that's MORE than good enough!
Now, many people like the electronic scales. That's fine, as long as one recognizes their vagaries and can work within them. Yes, they can be convenient! Yes, they are quicker for certain kinds of jobs! Despite the big differential in retail prices, they are probably cheaper to have Wat Yu Way put together in a Chinese sweatshop than a good beam model. However they can be, and often are, inconsistent due to a variety of influences, both internal and external, far more so than beam models. That said, a tenth of a grain is a tenth of a grain, no matter how it's weighed, so, no, they are not any more accurate nor precise than beam models, and in my experience, often less sensitive. (Sensitivity being defined as that quality of being able to detect a change in the tool's reading at the very lowest levels, something our consumer grade electronics are often deficient at doing. Yet it's probably our most important consideration when trickling!) If their shortcomings don't bother you, get one and use it! If you wish to spend $300 to do a $100 job, it's your money and your choice how to spend it.
But please quit telling us they're "better" than beam scales. They're NOT. They do the same job, in a different way. Simple as that, and most of our reloading tasks fall under that exact same heading. There's a reason so many companies make reloading equipment, and no two of them do it exactly like the next guy... EVERYBODY has his/her idea of what's best, and they're probably correct. For them...
Rick C
I've had a chargemaster for almost 3 years now. Works perfect. Since buying it I've really had a chance to increase the number of rounds I reload. So I can shoot more. It's been great so far. I also have an RCBS 10-10 scales I check it against periodically. Yup, you guessed it. Right on the money!
I'm not saying it's better than another scales, what I like about it is the consistency, I can get in a rhythm with it. So I like the beep when it hits the correct weight. Then it counts the number of charges thrown. It's not fail safe but allows for one more layer of double checks to avoid over charging. So in the three years it's loaded many thousands of rounds. I'd buy another without hesitation.
I'm not saying it's better than another scales, what I like about it is the consistency, I can get in a rhythm with it. So I like the beep when it hits the correct weight. Then it counts the number of charges thrown. It's not fail safe but allows for one more layer of double checks to avoid over charging. So in the three years it's loaded many thousands of rounds. I'd buy another without hesitation.
Beam scales are accurate................the small ones used for reloading don't have enough resolution on the pointer. The "window" that pointer rides, YOU can not judge it within a tenth of a grain, don't care what you think. But do it however you want, but digital scales are more precise. Just like any other measuring device........A vernier caliber is good, a dial caliper is better and a digital caliper is best, because it takes the numbers out further. There is zero guesswork in YOU reading the hashes or halfway in between twoRick Courtright said:gtxmonte said:
Hi,
It's getting deep in here again...
Beam scales, or balances as some have corrected me in the past, depend simply on gravity, arguably the most consistent force we deal with every day. The job of our scale, no matter how big, small, simple or complex, is to measure the effect of that gravity on a mass and give us a result of that interaction expressed as a weight, in one of several kinds of units, which in the reloader's case is the one we call grains. One can purchase check weights which trace back to THE official standards bureaus, and they don't change. So if one prefers a beam scale, as I do, and it checks out dead nuts against the check weights, as mine do (and the oldest, an RCBS 5-0-5 has been doing for 40+ years), it's done its job, and that's MORE than good enough!
Now, many people like the electronic scales. That's fine, as long as one recognizes their vagaries and can work within them. Yes, they can be convenient! Yes, they are quicker for certain kinds of jobs! Despite the big differential in retail prices, they are probably cheaper to have Wat Yu Way put together in a Chinese sweatshop than a good beam model. However they can be, and often are, inconsistent due to a variety of influences, both internal and external, far more so than beam models. That said, a tenth of a grain is a tenth of a grain, no matter how it's weighed, so, no, they are not any more accurate nor precise than beam models, and in my experience, often less sensitive. (Sensitivity being drfined sd that quality of being able to detect a change in the tool's reading at the very lowest levels, something our consumer grade electronics are often deficient at doing. Yet it's probably our most important consideration when trickling!) If their shortcomings don't bother you, get one and use it! If you wish to spend $300 to do a $100 job, it's your money and your choice how to spend it.
But please quit telling us they're "better" than beam scales. They're NOT. They do the same job, in a different way. Simple as that, and most of our reloading tasks fall under that exact same heading. There's a reason so many companies make reloading equipment, and no two of them do it exactly like the next guy... EVERYBODY has his/her idea of what's best, and they're probably correct. For them...
Rick C
I have a set of 60s vintage Ohaus beam scales, which some consider better than new ones........I can move the tenth grain weight 3 notches and all three setting are still basically pointing at the zero. Yours will do the same, because they ALL do. To get fine resolution, it needs a needle pointer, more scale and be right on it............it's not, none are. So don't tell you are ultimately precise with your beam scale, because you are not
I would definitely disagree with this statement. A trickle up charge from bullet to bullet will be more consistent. How can that NOT matter? Don't you want each bullet for a match to be as equal as possible? In a match IF you are concerned with velocity, as you say (and I agree) shouldn't you be concerned with how much powder is in the load? Yes, down to the tenth, IF you want consistency from bullet to bullet.
And this....???
Sorry, but the RCBS 10-10 scale does do a very good job of measuring in the tenths of a grain. I bought this scale years ago because of these measuring capabilities.
If you would like I can post some close up pictures of the scales tomorrow.
Rick Courtright
Hawkeye
Hi,
There are three words which, properly understood and applied, will put a quick and merciful end to many, if not most, of these "Ford-Chevy" scale discussions:
--Accuracy
--Precision
--Sensitivity
I was schooled in them rather extensively when I once made the very mistake we see repeated here and told someone "You can't..." with respect to his use of "old school" tools when "hi-tech" versions are readily available. I'll admit to being embarrassed...
Rick C
There are three words which, properly understood and applied, will put a quick and merciful end to many, if not most, of these "Ford-Chevy" scale discussions:
--Accuracy
--Precision
--Sensitivity
I was schooled in them rather extensively when I once made the very mistake we see repeated here and told someone "You can't..." with respect to his use of "old school" tools when "hi-tech" versions are readily available. I'll admit to being embarrassed...
Rick C
I believe I made that clear in my first post. Accuracy and velocity spread is what matters and the simple fact is a tenth of a grain doesn't change that, plus my Chargemaster IS accurate within a tenth of a grain, so trickling gains me nothing. I DO shoot matches, I know many match shooters, we have a large group of them here. Not ONE trickles up charges. My velocity spreads between 10 shots strings are VERY small, so whatever I am doing works and one of those things is throwing every charge with this machine, along with meticulous case prep and bullet selection.Kevin said:
You know it's funny.........some guys on here akin reloading to rocket science, like it is the most difficult and precise thing in the world. Where the slightest mistake and you will be pushing up daises. Yet on the flip side, totally scoff at newer and better pieces to do this supposed insanely delicate job with, because the other stuff is good enough. The ones that think beam scales are more accurate than a modern digital..........that's fine. You guys carry on, nobody is trying to stop you
I started this thread ONLY to report that Cabelas was having a sale and had a good price on the Chargemaster, NOT start a modern vs old school debate. The first poster reported how bad they were in a couple different posts and then come to find out, he doesn't own one and never has. I have been doing this for 40 years. The equipment we have available to us now is light years ahead of what we used to have. Be that bullets, cases, dies, scales and a myriad of other things. You guys that want to do it with old school equipment..........that's fine, just don't try and convince others it's better and more accurate, because it's not. I shoot WAY better now than I did years ago. Is that because I am more stable and can see better...........hell no. Its because the rifles I have and the ammo I make is better than it has ever been. Even rifles I have had for 30 years, shoot better now. That's because my ammo is better, because it is made with better equipment. I don't hunt, so I don't CARE if my rifle and ammo is "good enough" for minute of deer or whatever. From day one, I have strictly been a target shooter, that's what I do. Group size and Aggregate scores in todays benchrest shooting is out of this world good...........why?.........it's called technology.
In doing this so long, I have a LOT of equipment. I think I have 10 presses, about as many measures, several sets of scales and the list goes on. As with about anything else, the tools to do a job get better as time goes on
I will agree with you, the only one who posted the chargemaster is bad and come to find out he doesn't have one. That is pretty funny actually. What's the saying... If you don't have anything nice to say....
I also agree with you on the idea of reloading not being like rocket science. True you have to take certain safe guards, but there is a degree of leeway. This thread has been good for discussing what creates accuracy. So thanks for that at least.
I also agree with you on the idea of reloading not being like rocket science. True you have to take certain safe guards, but there is a degree of leeway. This thread has been good for discussing what creates accuracy. So thanks for that at least.
The average reloader has no idea what true "Match" ammo is. They buy the box that says "Match" on it, or they trickle up their charges and think they are producing "Match" ammo. True match ammo, is some of the most meticulously prepared stuff there is. Every case is weighed, every primer is weighed, every bullet is weighed and the contour checked. Flash and primer holes meticulously prepared. Neck size, neck thickness, case centricity, rim thickness. Cases are checked for volume of water they hold. Even if two weigh the same, if one holds more water, one of them is scrap. Even with exceptional bullets, like Match Kings or Bergers, it's not unusual to relegate many in a box to "fouler" rounds, because they simply won't make the cut on close inspection. We shoot for ultimate accuracy and velocity spreads. If your velocity for a 10 shot string is within a few numbers, you are making GOOD ammo. Case prep, neck tension, straight rounds and good bullets.......in that order are probably THE most important items. The charge is down the list. Most "match" rounds are in calibers that take a good bit of powder. In these rounds, a tenth of a grain just doesn't matter. Plus, as I stated earlier, that tenth on a beam scale is somewhat subjective to how you read it anyway. Digital doesn't lie. You can also buy digital scales that cost 10 bucks, or some that cost 1000 bucks. Most serious reloaders will HAVE a set of very expensive ones that go out several numbers, that you bought in the quest for "perfect" ammo. Then you realize that they sit on the bench unused, because you simply don't need them, after you learn other things matter MUCH more. If my velocity spreads are tight with thrown charges from a measure, or from my Chargemaster and getting them "perfect" with digital scales that go out 4 numbers makes no difference in that, there is no point in doing it. GOOD ammo takes enough time as it is, no sense in wasting more time on stuff that doesn't help................While I personally load all my Match rounds at home, some guys prefer to load on site between strings to fine tune based on weather. 99% of them throw charges. Rare to see a trickler on a bench at a match
This is all true. I don't produce match ammo as you describe it. I've read about it, like the volume of water a case will hold and weighing everything. I do however do my part as beast as possible. Clean primer pockets, measure powder and load one at a time, inspecting each case and bullet before and after reloading.
It's also interesting to me how little is required to reload. Doesn't Lee make the hand loader, no bench required. They also make powder scoops which can be somewhat accurate. It is a pretty old science, but like you mention earlier, technology does help advance techniques. It isn't necessary, but can help some people.
It's also interesting to me how little is required to reload. Doesn't Lee make the hand loader, no bench required. They also make powder scoops which can be somewhat accurate. It is a pretty old science, but like you mention earlier, technology does help advance techniques. It isn't necessary, but can help some people.
I have loaded a MANY a round with a "Lee Loader". It came in a small box and all you needed other than that, was a hammer, a piece of steel and a way to measure the powder. At one time, they were considered to make very good ammo and it probably was at the time. Some guys still do it close to the same with Wilson dies and an arbor press................I have tried that too..........LOL!!! Not much I haven't tried over the years. Now we have custom machined sizing dies that cost $500 each. You see those, you see $50 Wilson dies and everything in between. Guys use what works for them. I can only speak for myself............and that has been, when my equipment advanced, so did the quality of my rounds.
To expound on your second point.......yes, handloading shells that go bang, is a relatively easy thing to do. If you can follow directions and don't have the attention span of a gnat, you can do it. My dad taught me to do it when I was 10, maybe a little less. It was simple. Do this, do this and do this. I was loading on my own without his supervision a short time later, but following HIS recipes to the tee. But it was years later that I became a TRUE "handloader". That means recognizing what the brass, the rifle, the chrono and the targets were "telling" me. I don't need a book to tell me what to do. I understand what I am doing and I understand how to read a burn rate chart and how that relates to what I am working with. I have been chastised on this forum for saying I run loads that are well above published max loads these days. Basically guys telling me I'm stupid and am going to blow myself up. NOT going to happen, if you KNOW what you are doing. While I don't do it myself, I know guys that mix powders to get the burn rates and characteristics they want and they are championship caliber shooters. I am simply not THAT smart on the subject. Usually not popular to say, but it boils down to this. Just because you can follow direction and make rounds that safely go bang, makes you about as much of a TRUE "handloader", as following the directions and assembling your Ikea desk, makes you a furniture builder. Just like rattle canning some camo on your truck, doesn't make you a real custom painter either
To expound on your second point.......yes, handloading shells that go bang, is a relatively easy thing to do. If you can follow directions and don't have the attention span of a gnat, you can do it. My dad taught me to do it when I was 10, maybe a little less. It was simple. Do this, do this and do this. I was loading on my own without his supervision a short time later, but following HIS recipes to the tee. But it was years later that I became a TRUE "handloader". That means recognizing what the brass, the rifle, the chrono and the targets were "telling" me. I don't need a book to tell me what to do. I understand what I am doing and I understand how to read a burn rate chart and how that relates to what I am working with. I have been chastised on this forum for saying I run loads that are well above published max loads these days. Basically guys telling me I'm stupid and am going to blow myself up. NOT going to happen, if you KNOW what you are doing. While I don't do it myself, I know guys that mix powders to get the burn rates and characteristics they want and they are championship caliber shooters. I am simply not THAT smart on the subject. Usually not popular to say, but it boils down to this. Just because you can follow direction and make rounds that safely go bang, makes you about as much of a TRUE "handloader", as following the directions and assembling your Ikea desk, makes you a furniture builder. Just like rattle canning some camo on your truck, doesn't make you a real custom painter either
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
...lets not forget that smaller cartridges with less powder volume require more precision than cases that use a large volume of powder. ...and no single powder measure is accurate with all types of powders. Some do better than others with different powders. 
Yes sir it is. I have some rifles that have special chambers. Meaning myself and my Smith, had the reamer made like WE wanted it. After you fireform some brass, you sent that to Whidden Gunworks, Warner Tool, whoever and have custom dies reamed to your brass. Sometimes it does what you want, sometimes it doesn't. If not, you set the barrel back, make another reamer and try it again. The quest for ultimate accuracy never ends. Just depends on how far you want to go and nobody has EVER gotten it perfect. Even rail guns that take the shooter completely out of the picture, don't put 10 shots in one hole at extended range. Because no gun and no round will EVER be perfect.TitanX said:
Jimbo mentioned measures and that's correct. Some are better with ball, than they are stick and flake and vice versa applies as well. I have measures from Lyman, RCBS, Redding and Harrell, multiples of some
NikA
Hunter
I would anticipate that you get more variation in your loading from the relative humidity in your loading and powder storage area that you will with a difference of 0.1 gr in a 40ish gr rifle load. Anyone who has dealt with hygroscopic chemicals stored is desiccators and the like should be aware of this type of variation.
However, I will disagree on the topic of the precision achievable with a mechanical scale. I bought my first scale used at as a result checked it against the electronic chemical balances at work for accuracy and precision. It is an RCBS 10-10 and was dead accurate. Later, while loading, I did an experiment to determine how much off the balance mark the needle would be for a charge that was 0.2 gr heavy or light. It's quite a bit and is now marked on my scale to let me know whether I should be concerned about a charge that is slightly off. With fine powders in my old Lyman 55 it is within 0.1 gr provided I am consistent. Even with coarse stuff like Unique it is rarely greater than 0.2 gr. I do trickle charges when load testing because it provides me with one less variable to be concerned with when comparing cartridge performance.
However, I will disagree on the topic of the precision achievable with a mechanical scale. I bought my first scale used at as a result checked it against the electronic chemical balances at work for accuracy and precision. It is an RCBS 10-10 and was dead accurate. Later, while loading, I did an experiment to determine how much off the balance mark the needle would be for a charge that was 0.2 gr heavy or light. It's quite a bit and is now marked on my scale to let me know whether I should be concerned about a charge that is slightly off. With fine powders in my old Lyman 55 it is within 0.1 gr provided I am consistent. Even with coarse stuff like Unique it is rarely greater than 0.2 gr. I do trickle charges when load testing because it provides me with one less variable to be concerned with when comparing cartridge performance.
Jimbo357mag
Hawkeye
I have a cheap Lee not-so 'Perfect Powder Measure' that does real well with extruded rifle powders like Varget and H4895, and also does fairly well with coarse flake powder like Blue Dot or Universal, I think because it has a flexible wiper built in. Fine grain powder spills out of the sides of the measure.TitanX said:
I also have an RCBS Uniflow Powder Measure with a small cylinder that does real well with fine grain powder like H-110, Accurate #9, HP-38/W231 or W748. It does fairly well with flake powder but jams with extruded powders.
dixie884
Blackhawk
All I know is, I like mine and it's worth what it cost, to me.
okie44
Single-Sixer
dixie884 said:
And that is all that matters.
Ford or Chevy? Blonde, brunette or redhead? Sweet tea or unsweetened? We can find lots of stuff we can argue about if we try!
