Open carrier loses gun
- Thread starter hittman
- Start date
Yaworski
Hawkeye
"Don't do me like that bro." LOL.
I think open carry is just asking for problems. It's legal here, and I see people doing it all the time...But, you're simply losing the element of surprise that concealed carry offers. IF I were a bad guy with harmful intent in mind, I'm just going to shoot you first.
Also, sticking a loaded, unsecured gun in your back pocket is just plain DUMB. And, not even bothering to pull your shirt over it is even dumber yet!
Also, sticking a loaded, unsecured gun in your back pocket is just plain DUMB. And, not even bothering to pull your shirt over it is even dumber yet!
JohnL
Buckeye
This guy was woefully unaware of his surroundings. Fail! An alert person would have not allowed the perp to get that close.
The old adage "two is one and one is none" would seem to apply.
When I lived in Nevada, I would sometimes open carry, but I was also hyper-vigilant. I do not much like to open carry, because I do not want to be a target.
When I lived in Nevada, I would sometimes open carry, but I was also hyper-vigilant. I do not much like to open carry, because I do not want to be a target.
Darwin Scores???
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A couple of years ago there was a fireman in DeKalb County, GA that had his gun snatched while in line at Dunkin Donuts. I don't know if it was carried openly or sloppily concealed. He pursued the thief outside & died for his trouble. What happened to him made me take concealment more seriously. No, I have never carried in a back pocket, or without a holster.
contender
Ruger Guru
There are places & times that Open Carry is easier or better than Concealed Carry.
BUT,,,,,,, you have to be well aware of where you are,, who's around you, and place your body in a position where a thug couldn't snatch it.
And of course,, CC is also a good idea for many other places or reasons.
I guess the best way to describe it; "It all depends,,,,!"
But that guy in the video was NOT aware,, nor did he protect his gun by keeping himself in a position to prevent it from being snatched. Add in he was quite stupid to follow the guys out of the store & trying to "reason" with them.
As for being a "target" if a thug is sizing up a place to rob or whatever,, there are a those who may NOT try anything fearing return fire. Or,, if the thug looks at the person,, and decides,, "That guy is my first target" may well be distracted from his initial reasoning for wanting to attack or rob a place or person. And if the OC guy is aware of their surroundings & the people around him,,, they will often realize that there may be a potential threat,, and already be taking slight but firm offensive maneuvers to prevent being the "first target."
Situational Awareness is still one of the best defenses against an attack. Another one is NOT being in places where crime is more common or criminals are more likely to be around.
In short,, no one method or whatever works for everybody all the time. Too many variables.
BUT,,,,,,, you have to be well aware of where you are,, who's around you, and place your body in a position where a thug couldn't snatch it.
And of course,, CC is also a good idea for many other places or reasons.
I guess the best way to describe it; "It all depends,,,,!"
But that guy in the video was NOT aware,, nor did he protect his gun by keeping himself in a position to prevent it from being snatched. Add in he was quite stupid to follow the guys out of the store & trying to "reason" with them.
As for being a "target" if a thug is sizing up a place to rob or whatever,, there are a those who may NOT try anything fearing return fire. Or,, if the thug looks at the person,, and decides,, "That guy is my first target" may well be distracted from his initial reasoning for wanting to attack or rob a place or person. And if the OC guy is aware of their surroundings & the people around him,,, they will often realize that there may be a potential threat,, and already be taking slight but firm offensive maneuvers to prevent being the "first target."
Situational Awareness is still one of the best defenses against an attack. Another one is NOT being in places where crime is more common or criminals are more likely to be around.
In short,, no one method or whatever works for everybody all the time. Too many variables.
Rand O’Merik
Bearcat
We have a standing army of invaders on our soil. Forget about “element of surprise” - if you think you need that, you’re better off not carrying at all. So is the rest of society. Only criminals think like that. If you’re open carrying, you’re a target.
“Situational awareness”… sure, until you’re trying to do any casual life thing and forget all about your situational awareness until you realize you let your situational awareness down, and suddenly you have situational awareness again. Avoid places, people, and situations where situational awareness is actually warranted. If you think you need to pretend we live in Somalia to feel safe at the local shopping mall, then don’t go there.
Guns don’t keep you safe. They can keep you alive, but they don’t keep you safe. Never make the mistake of thinking that.
“Situational awareness”… sure, until you’re trying to do any casual life thing and forget all about your situational awareness until you realize you let your situational awareness down, and suddenly you have situational awareness again. Avoid places, people, and situations where situational awareness is actually warranted. If you think you need to pretend we live in Somalia to feel safe at the local shopping mall, then don’t go there.
Guns don’t keep you safe. They can keep you alive, but they don’t keep you safe. Never make the mistake of thinking that.
I often 'open carry' although more discreetly than sticking my shooter in my pocket or waistband. One of the dumbest carry techniques is the 'stick it down the back of your pants' TV/movie special.
I don't live in a high population area so my practices will be different from those who do. I make a significant effort to prevent ANYONE from getting too close. If I'm being crowded in a checkout or other pinch point, I simply step out of line. The simple act of making eye contact with a 'pushy' dude often sends a message but make sure you're not compromised in case the pushy dude takes offense.
I don't live in a high population area so my practices will be different from those who do. I make a significant effort to prevent ANYONE from getting too close. If I'm being crowded in a checkout or other pinch point, I simply step out of line. The simple act of making eye contact with a 'pushy' dude often sends a message but make sure you're not compromised in case the pushy dude takes offense.
DeletedMember275
Hunter
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One thing that I simply cannot understand is why so many people that open carry insist on using a holster with no retention devices! I'm talking about a thumb break, at a minimum! IMHO, you are literally asking for someone to snatch your gun if you go out so equipped. You might as well wear a sign saying 'STEAL MY GUN!' I've heard all of the lame excuses, so please don't trouble me by repeating them. Sure, you're a ninjaoperator, and nobody could possibly get that close to you. Got it.
Was just about to say this and saw your post. There are retention devices available now that won't slow you down one bit.
The Massad Ayoob Group (MAG) offers weapon retention training as part of the MAG 80 class. It is well worth the time, trouble, and cost. It also brings home the importance of a quality holster and belt.
Another example why I don't recommend open carry. Meaning open carry in populated places. It would be great if there were places in the US that open carry was safe from crooks looking for victims. I don't believe that place exists. Carrying open without a holster and or a retention holster doesn't make you tough or safe. It makes you a target.
The other problem with open carry is training. Do any train to retain the gun if attacked? I doubt it. It can be done; it can be effective.
Cops do train to retain and counterattack. But why heck their well armed? No one would try and disarm a cop. Guess again, crooks and nut jobs do. Stats show if you are disarmed your chance of living much longer is almost zero.
That could have been the last video of that guy's life. Just some Joe with a gun in a rear pocket. It was 3 against 1 from the start.
The other problem with open carry is training. Do any train to retain the gun if attacked? I doubt it. It can be done; it can be effective.
Cops do train to retain and counterattack. But why heck their well armed? No one would try and disarm a cop. Guess again, crooks and nut jobs do. Stats show if you are disarmed your chance of living much longer is almost zero.
That could have been the last video of that guy's life. Just some Joe with a gun in a rear pocket. It was 3 against 1 from the start.
Richbaker
Blackhawk
I don't normally open carry, but when I do, I use a Blackhawk.
Paul B
Hunter
The only time I open carried was when on one of my desert or mountain hikes. An S&W 6" 629 or most 6.5 to 6.5" barreled Blackhawks aren't all that easy to conceal. Toward the end before an accident sidelined my ability to hike, I carried a 4.5" super Blackhawk .44 Mag. openly.
Usual CCW piece is a Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP with an S&W M60 .38 Spl. as the BUG. Sometimes I carried an S&W 6906 9MM because of the 12 round capacity. However, I always felt better with the Commander or a straight 1911A1 .45 APC.
Paul B.
Usual CCW piece is a Colt Combat Commander .45 ACP with an S&W M60 .38 Spl. as the BUG. Sometimes I carried an S&W 6906 9MM because of the 12 round capacity. However, I always felt better with the Commander or a straight 1911A1 .45 APC.
Paul B.
I often here unsubstantiated claims that open carriers are more likely to be shot with their own weapon than shoot others.
There are tens of thousands open carriers every day. But if you look at the numbers these folks overwhelmingly use their firearms against adversaries instead of the other way around. And they deal with the worst of society every shift.
Open carry just requires better security and situational awareness. I don't do it except where permitted but, I imagine I would from time to time under the right circumstances.
I just figure that the right to keep and bear arms"bear" arms shouldn't be limited. But I am sort of in favor of the whole US Constitution thing.
There are tens of thousands open carriers every day. But if you look at the numbers these folks overwhelmingly use their firearms against adversaries instead of the other way around. And they deal with the worst of society every shift.
Open carry just requires better security and situational awareness. I don't do it except where permitted but, I imagine I would from time to time under the right circumstances.
I just figure that the right to keep and bear arms"bear" arms shouldn't be limited. But I am sort of in favor of the whole US Constitution thing.
Where is your substantiation?
Cops carry firearms tens(hundreds) of thousands of hours a year openly. Contrary to TV being disarmed by criminals is pretty rare.
Situational awareness is a big thing. Those ghettoites are seasoned predators and the "don't do me that way dog" moron is or was an easy target.
Does anyone know the final outcome of that little bit of stupidity?
Does anyone know the final outcome of that little bit of stupidity?
Well, they took his gun away and then there was about 15 shots so...
I figure the idiot was at least wounded but if the ghettoites were firing ghetto style they may not have finished him off.
- Joined
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A rabbit enters a den of wolves, expecting to not be eaten?
Low I.Q. individual. Too bad he was dumb enough to do that. He didn't deserve it but darn sure should've expected it.
Low I.Q. individual. Too bad he was dumb enough to do that. He didn't deserve it but darn sure should've expected it.
"A rabbit enters a den of wolves, expecting to not be eaten?"
Sometimes the rabbit doesn't know the wolves are waiting. Not long after younger Son lost his vision, we were taking him to a specialist somewhere in KCMO. Nearly there, we discovered some items had been left at home and needed to replace them before reaching the doctor's office. Stopped at a Walmart and when we entered I noticed we were the only Caucasians in the building. Too late to leave so we just got what we needed and left w/o incident.
Later, I mentioned this OOPS to a relative who lives in that area and he was flabbergasted. His exact words: "you did what? white folks don't go in there". How was I to know? There wasn't a sign posted. Anyway nothing bad happened although walking through the store was like Moses parting the waves. The other shoppers moved away like we were infected or something. Had it gone the other way, I suppose we'd have found out if I was as good as I thought I was. My point is: sometimes one can't avoid becoming a target.
Sometimes the rabbit doesn't know the wolves are waiting. Not long after younger Son lost his vision, we were taking him to a specialist somewhere in KCMO. Nearly there, we discovered some items had been left at home and needed to replace them before reaching the doctor's office. Stopped at a Walmart and when we entered I noticed we were the only Caucasians in the building. Too late to leave so we just got what we needed and left w/o incident.
Later, I mentioned this OOPS to a relative who lives in that area and he was flabbergasted. His exact words: "you did what? white folks don't go in there". How was I to know? There wasn't a sign posted. Anyway nothing bad happened although walking through the store was like Moses parting the waves. The other shoppers moved away like we were infected or something. Had it gone the other way, I suppose we'd have found out if I was as good as I thought I was. My point is: sometimes one can't avoid becoming a target.
Paul B
Hunter
Back wen I was still working for the NWS, every once in a while I'd have to go to Kansas City from upgraded training. One was for working with radar and another for learning how to work with the Doppler radar. There were other courses as well. Anyway, I along with two others from the course left and walked to downtown for dinner and did a movie. Guess it was close to midnight when we walked back to the motel. The motel owner was floored that we even survived. Later the next day I was having a beer at the bar that was part of the motel complex and had an interesting conversation during which he said the way we went downtown was through the highest crime area of the city. Guess that explained why we never saw one car or person moving during that walk. A couple pf days later I was having a beer and talking to the very cute bartender when a guy slight three sheets to the wind got a bit out of hand. Let's just say there was a fight and he lost. Beer bottles to not break like you see in the movies. heads break. The guy was told to pack up and leave and find some other motel to stay at, the bartender wouldn't let me pays a for drinks after than and I learn the motel operator was a made man.
The next few times I had to go to KC for schooling the NWS put us up at a different hotel with much nicer rooms. I always made it a point to stop by that motel and pay my respects to the guy that owned the place. Never had to pay for drinks as well or a meal on the visit.
I guess that old boy has gone to whatever happy hunting ground made guys go to as the last time I saw him was about 1981 and he was pretty old and wanting to retire.
Paul B.
The next few times I had to go to KC for schooling the NWS put us up at a different hotel with much nicer rooms. I always made it a point to stop by that motel and pay my respects to the guy that owned the place. Never had to pay for drinks as well or a meal on the visit.
I guess that old boy has gone to whatever happy hunting ground made guys go to as the last time I saw him was about 1981 and he was pretty old and wanting to retire.
Paul B.
DeletedMember275
Hunter
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I counted 40 shots, minimum. The stupid was strong with that one.
With cops its true, they are getting disarmed to get shot. Few attempting to disarm a cop get the gun because of training. It's the fight to the death. It's you or the crook. Also, many cops carry other weapons and might go with a back-up to the stop the attack while retaining the service gun in the holster.
BTY, I once had a crook grab my wheelgun and try to pull it out of the holster during an arrest. I won't go into details except he gave up and was not shot.
In Portland, in my 39 years. Attempts to disarm cops did happen several times that I knew about. Only 1 was successful that I knew about. The cop was not shot; he was taken hostage by the 2 crooks. They finally gave up.
The FBI sends data on cops killed every year to all PDs and SOs. Most of the time it is only broken down by handgun, rifle, vehicle crash etc. Many police dept.s send out in bulletins state or nationwide with details of police attacks. It's for officer safety and reminders. Few cases make the national press.
Now citizen open carry. I don't have any stats. But likely, the few that get disarmed is because the crook wants the gun and runs away with the gun. Wanting to sell it or use the gun in other crimes. Not to kill the open carry person.
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"Whole thing was stupid. White dude didn't need that soda that bad. Stay out of situations like that before you start. That store is not the place to be after dark..."
Maybe so AND his judgement could be questioned BUT: If you're saying he (or any law abiding citizen) is at fault for just being somewhere, there's a big problem. Would he have been legit to just walk in, look around, and shoot every hoodlum looking dude in the building?
Maybe so AND his judgement could be questioned BUT: If you're saying he (or any law abiding citizen) is at fault for just being somewhere, there's a big problem. Would he have been legit to just walk in, look around, and shoot every hoodlum looking dude in the building?
I want to make a point about Judgement. How it can be used against you in a SD case. If you create a situation where you have to take action. Action because of your carelessness or negligence. You might be charged. I know of 2 big cases in Oregon, 1 was police officer involved the other citizen against citizen. These involved the killing of someone, the person defending themselves was found at fault because of Negligence.
I will use the example that started this post that if it happened in my following way the Guy getting disarmed could be charged. I am making part of the event up to prove my point about CARELESSNESS and or NEGLIGENCE.
Guy puts his gun in his back pocket exposed and goes into the store to buy soda. Let's say that was legal. The bad guy steals his gun by taking it out of his pocket That is a crime no doubt about it. We seen that happen on the video.
What if the guy that was disarmed, had another backup gun hidden on him. He goes after the guy who stole his gun and shoots him for fear of his life since he was disarmed.
Courts will or might say. It was not a justified SD case because of his own NEGLIGENCE to not secure his own gun in a holster created the case where he then thought he could defend himself.
Yes, your judgement will be examined.
I will use the example that started this post that if it happened in my following way the Guy getting disarmed could be charged. I am making part of the event up to prove my point about CARELESSNESS and or NEGLIGENCE.
Guy puts his gun in his back pocket exposed and goes into the store to buy soda. Let's say that was legal. The bad guy steals his gun by taking it out of his pocket That is a crime no doubt about it. We seen that happen on the video.
What if the guy that was disarmed, had another backup gun hidden on him. He goes after the guy who stole his gun and shoots him for fear of his life since he was disarmed.
Courts will or might say. It was not a justified SD case because of his own NEGLIGENCE to not secure his own gun in a holster created the case where he then thought he could defend himself.
Yes, your judgement will be examined.
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