Not flaring case mouths for cast bullets?

[Joe S.]

I was on the website below reading about cast bullets and saw where he is saying you are not supposed to flare case mouths for loading case bullets. It says you will shave the bullet and lose accuracy. He also says a factory crimp die is not desirable, along with some other stuff. I have always flared the case mouth! Have I been doing it wrong all this time???

http://www.dardascastbullets.com/

 

[The Preacher]

"Do not flare the case mouths for cast bullet reloading - you will damage them by shaving the shanks of the bullets."

I've never seen that written before. Me, I flare all my revolver/pistol cartridges and will continue to do so. If you want to see "shaved" bullets try loading them without flaring! But then again maybe I'm just behind the times. :lol:

The Preacher

 

[Joe S.]

Kinda what i was thinking but i AM behind the times

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Bullfeathers!

If you DON'T flare your cases just a little, you WILL shave the bullets.

One hopes the guy just got tangled up in his explanation and said the wrong thing.

JMHO, but I'll stick with it . . . I've only been loading lead bullets for like fifty years.

 

[Joe S.]

Thats the consensus im getting everywhere i posted this topic...

Thanks

 

[WIL TERRY]

FOOLISHNESS !!!

 

[Mobuck]

He's got it bass ackwards. A good sharp cornered or gas checked cast bullet won't even start if the case isn't flared.

 

[Clovishound]

I assume you are referring to the Dardas website. They go on to say you should use the Lyman two stage expander die.

I have used their bullets, and like them. I have had good luck using the Lee expander die. Not saying the Lyman die might not do a better job. Doubt I will order one just to find out.

 

[Joe S.]

Ive heard good things about his bullets. And im not arguing that the Lyman may ne better but the way he wrote it (or at least the way i read what he wrote) makes me feel like my gun aint gonna shoot good at all by flaring the necks.

 

[Rick Courtright]

Hi,

I read it that the gentleman just prefers a custom seater plug (fitted to a particular bullet) and the Lyman M-die to the "one size fits all" plug, found in so many dies, and the conventional flaring die. Don't think he's trying to tell us to insert the cast bullet in the case w/o SOME kind of expansion of the case mouth, as one would do w/ a jacketed bullet.

Concerning the "Thou shalt not" proscription w/ regard to the use of factory crimp dies, I wouldn't argue w/ the fellow, as he's made at least a few more cast bullets than I have! Instead, I'd use the results as my guide. If the bullet lands where I want it to, loaded however I prefer, I'm probably "doing it right." For me, in my gun, w/ my loads, that is... One great thing about handloading is there are MANY ways to do a lot of things, and while each one will work for some people, at the same time it might be problematic for others.

As such, I tend to be skeptical of "This is the ONLY way" comments. Otherwise, looks like he does a good job!

Rick C

 

[Precision32]

I have the "M" dies and IMHO they flare the case too much. I used them one time and now they just set on the back of the bench.

I use the standard taper of the expander die and put just enough flair to prevent shaving lead. If I don't flare I get shaving. YRMV.

 

[loaded round]

That comment about not flaring case mouths is 100% pure B.S. Case mouths have to be flared for cast bullets. My opinion is from my experience of 40 years of reloading. However in my opinion also, there is no need for a Lee factory crimp die when reloading pistol bullets of any caliber.

 

[5of7]

Never buy bullets from someone who doesn't know what he is talking about. 8)

 

[Hammerdown77]

I agree with everything he says. So long as I do the exact opposite.

 

[mikld]

I would think he meant to say "If you do not flare case mouths..."

 

[Rclark]

I would think he meant to say "If you do not flare case mouths..."

I would hope that is what he meant to say. Doesn't make sense otherwise.

 

[gmartinnc]

I assume you are referring to the Dardas website. They go on to say you should use the Lyman two stage expander die.

I have used their bullets, and like them. I have had good luck using the Lee expander die. Not saying the Lyman die might not do a better job. Doubt I will order one just to find out.

I just bought a 45 Colt RCBS set, and their expander is made like the recommended Lyman. They must have changed the way they make them cause that isn't the way they used to be made.

 

[powder smoke]

Common sense says flare the case mouth I will continue. ps

 

[gmartinnc]

Dardas says to not flare the case mouths because there is a better way to do it. This new design when properly adjusted, does three things. #1 expand the case mouth so the bullet will slide in the case, #2 leaves a ledge in the mouth for the bullet to firmly stop against so it will not be crooked and #3 they do leave a slight flare in the mouth.
When all you have is a flare, the bullet may be crooked enought to shave some lead on the way in. That is what Dardas is talking about.
Three die companies are making their expander plugs like this now that I'm aware of and possibly more, Lyman, Redding, and RCBS has just switched over. I called them this morning and they are sending me the new design expander plug for my 41 mag die for free!
After you use one of these new ones, you will throw all the others away. They really do work much better.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

Are you saying that this is just the Lyman design, or is there something new under the sun?

 

[gmartinnc]

Dardas just mentions Lyman, but I know for sure that Redding and RCBS are doing it, would be supprised if Dillon and Lee doesnt also. I don't know who came up with this but I like it because you don't have to guess at getting the bullet straight. Just push in in till it stops on the ledge. Here is a photo of the expander out of my 45 Colt die. The step below the bevel creates the ledge for the bullet to sit on. BTW, looks like I need to clean the crud off of mine, good thing I took it out for the photo.

 

[Ale-8(1)]

All of the Lyman dies I have been using for many, many years have the so-called "M" step as shown above. It's only a couple of thousandths bigger than the nominal diameter of the portion of the plug below it which has already started to expamd the case as it enters. What I do know about this is that if you don't push the plug into the case far enough to get onto that abruptly-tapered portion about 1/16" or so above the "M" step and actually put a little flair on the case mouth, you will almost surely shave a lead bullet . . . every time.

I cannot say I have ever noticed the formation of the "ledge" mentioned here. It may in fact be in there, but I certainly haven't noticed it, nor have I felt there was any need for it. That said, if some folks like it and believe they are getting some benefit from it, I say go for it . . . probably can't hurt anything.

To me the whole thing is a solution seeking a problem, or an advertising ploy, but that's JMHO.

:mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen: :mrgreen:

 

[gmartinnc]

Here is a photo of the ledge left by the above seater plug. There is a slight flare there too, more can be had by lowering the seater plug. If some folks have been using dies with this feature for years, it has been working for them all this time and they were not aware of it. I haven't, as the only dies stocked around here were RCBS so that was all I ever had. Had I know there was a better way to do this, I would have did it long ago. If there was nothing to this concept, why did RCBS recently change their design and agree to replace the one in my 41 mag set for free?

Here is the old RCBS design. All it does it flare the case mouth.

 

[gmartinnc]

The new expander plug came today from RCBS for my 41 mag die. Here are both the old and new together.

 

[tek4260]

That expander/flare ruins neck tension. All I want is a gentle flare at the top of the case to prevent shaving. I turn my expander dies down until they slide freely in the sized case and only use the flare portion. I believe lee makes a universal flare die that saves you from having to modify your dies.

See the neck tension here. I want to see the lube grooves through the brass

Otherwise you'll get pull and inconsistent velocities. Crimp does little to hold the bullet in the case. About the only thing it is good for in my estimation is to prevent setback in autos.