LEARNED A FEW THINGS TODAY

[cruzerlou]

Starting with the M1A .I talked with the tech;s at IMR and the"service load manual is for military surplus brass N.A.T.O. 7.62x51 .The M.S. brass is thicker and with IMR 4064 using the Serria Match King 168ge B.T,H.P. the starting load is 36.1gr's to 41.6 gr's max .With cilvian .308 brass you can safley use the loading chart in their web sight .With comershial brass using the Serria match King 168gr B.T.H.P. the the starting load is 41.5 to 45.9C[compressed] .You do need to note that some comershial brass is thicker than others so start at 41.5 and work your way up .The M1A has a vented gas system unlike the M1Gerand .So as long as I'm using com. brass a load of 42.5-43gr's it's safe in the M1A and won't hurt the gun .This was confermed by the tech's at Serria.
The second thing is that with my Deerstalker ,using H-110 and Hornaday XPT 240 H.P.'s That the max load is 24.0grs and you can only reduce H-110 by 3% giving you a starting load of 23.28just say 23.3 grs .I loaded up some at 23.5 and it ran the gun fine .I just shot it as a function test and it was just a touch softer shooting than Winchester White Box 240gr S.J.H.P.'s and threw the empties the same distance .Acording to the guys cat IMR the W.W.B. 240gr Is loaded with 24.0 grs of 296 which is exactaly the same as H-110 both in pressure and and max load .You can only reduce ether powder by 3% so the starting load with both powders is 23.3.
Thanks again for all the help and good advice every one gave me .
Now all I need to do is make a trip to the range and do some accuracy testing with both rifles .I'm sure the deer stalker will be fine consedreing that it is a 100 yard max gun ,the M1A may take a bit more work ,but it's a tack driver anyway so it shouldn't be too hard to find that sweet load for it .
Lou

 

[PECKER]

Well that settles it! You can teach an old dog new tricks :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

 

[Jimbo357mag]

The second thing is that with my Deerstalker ,using H-110 and Hornaday XPT 240 H.P.'s That the max load is 24.0grs and you can only reduce H-110 by 3% giving you a starting load of 23.28just say 23.3 grs .I loaded up some at 23.5 and it ran the gun fine .I just shot it as a function test and it was just a touch softer shooting than Winchester White Box 240gr S.J.H.P.'s and threw the empties the same distance .Acording to the guys cat IMR the W.W.B. 240gr Is loaded with 24.0 grs of 296 which is exactaly the same as H-110 both in pressure and and max load .You can only reduce ether powder by 3% so the starting load with both powders is 23.3.
Thanks again for all the help and good advice every one gave me .
Now all I need to do is make a trip to the range and do some accuracy testing with both rifles .I'm sure the deer stalker will be fine consedreing that it is a 100 yard max gun ,the M1A may take a bit more work ,but it's a tack driver anyway so it shouldn't be too hard to find that sweet load for it .
Lou

That is exactly the result I found also. H-110 runs those auto-loaders just right. BTW I think Hodgdon's recomendation for loading H-110 is a little on the conservative side with the 'do not reduce more than 3%' warning. It used to be 'do not reduce more than 5%'. I think these warnings were the result of problems with loading light charges of that powder in big cases. I firmly believe that you can reduce the charge of H-110 by about 10% in the 44mag with a 240gr bullet without any problems at all, but that is just my opinion. I have shot a lot of rounds loaded to 21.0gr without problems but I don't do it any more. 8) 8)

...Jimbo

 

[cruzerlou]

Yea Jim A funny thing ,on the IMR websight talking about H-110 & W 296 they say any powder without a starting load listed only a max load ,that all there powders should only be reduced by 3% because anything under that could lodge a bullet in the bbl due to lack of volosity .In the very next pargraph they say it's vrey air space sencitve and loads reduced more than 3% and that too much air space vs. powder volume could cause an EXPOLISION hazzard due to over perssure .Well which is it? It can't be both conditions at the same time LOL.I think their just CTA .H-110 IS a very slow burning powder ,thats wny it's such a great powder for stright walled magum cases and gives those really fast voloisites and hi pressures .But used with in SAMMI specs is one of the best mag powders you just have to watch what your doing .But hey I ALWAYS watch what I'm doing when reloading anyway . I won't even have a radio plalying while I'm reloading ,nothing to distract me from the task at hand .
With some powders like Unique ,Universal clays , if your throwing a light load for some powder puff loads the case volume is such that you could easaly throw a doubble charge and that would be WAY over max load and if your lucky just blow up your gun .I use Universial Clays to load up some cowboy action .44 mag loads and you could easily throw a doubble charge if your not watching what your doing.I've found this to be a very dirty burning powder though with non magnum large pistol primers .I solved this by just switching to mag primers and the loads shoot much cleaner with a very slight jump in pressure and volisity but still a nice light load . Very accurate and great for just plinking with the .44mag w/o all the noise, blast and recoil of full on mag loads .It's kind of like a big .38spl 148gr wadcutter target load .
Lou

 

[tomisu]

When loading for the M1A (M14) you may want to look at the Hornady Manual, it has a section devoted to that platform as well as the M1 Garand. The M14 platform has a lower pressure limit than the .308 Winchester and the M1 Garand has a lower pressure limit than the .30-06. Hornady uses thier brass rather than military brass for their loads so they must be reduced if using military brass. Powder burn rate is as important for those guns as is overall pressure. Though the bolt design can handle more pressure than listed, the op rod and reloading system are what limits the pressure and burn rate. A typical M1A load will be about 200 feet per second slower than a similar commercial load, you cannot substitue commercial ammo or full .308 Winchester loads in an M1A without risking some damage to the op rod.

IMR 4895 is a suitable powder, the NATO loads use a powder very close to Win 748. You do not want to use a powder much faster than IMR 4895 or much slower than Win 748. I also like to use military brass with my M14 and M1 Garand because the ejection system is violent, also the chamber on these guns tends to be a little more generous than their bolt conterparts and the heaver walled brass does not deform as much. The M1A Match guns usually have a true .308 Winchester chamber, but still needs to shoot NATO spec rather than commercial spec for the reloading system.

 

[cruzerlou]

The N.A.T.O. load 7.62x51 load list a FPS of 1650-1700 FPS with a 147/150 Gr FMJ bullet .If I keep my loads at around 42.4/43.0 of IMR 4064 with the Sreria Matck Ming 168re B.t.H.P. with com.brass acording to the guys I talked to at both Hornaday and Serria I should be with in specs for the rifle .As it was explained to me the M1A has a vented gas ststem where the M1Gerand dosen't which will cause the orp.rod to bend more readaly in the M1 Gerand and the M1A will bleed off the execess gass .I'm just going by what they told me and severasl folks here told me to contact these folks so I did and thats what they told me .As to the service manual the max load is 41.6Gr's of IMR 4064 at 2500 FPS .I keep getting diffrent info from diffrent folks ,not saying that your wrong ,but who am I susposed to believe .The Service load starts at 36.1 to 41.6 where the standard .308 load of the same powder starts at 41.5 to 45.9C [compressed] I never plan to even come close to that ,like I said 42.0 to 42.5 is where they said i should be fine with com.brass .The guy i spoke with at Hornaday has been shooting an M1A since 1980 and his gun is a standard model ,mine is a loaded with an aig guage mid weight bbl .At 36.1 The FPS is 2100 ,thats less than a 30 30 and at the max it's 2500FPS .How am I to know whats right .The guys at Hornaday and serria ane susposed to be the experts ,again not doubting you ,but with com .brass and only 2500FPS I should be safe if the max load with com brass is only 2700 with a 150gr bullet Right?
Whats the point of shooting the heavy bullet if all I can push it at is 22/2300 FPS? It would drop like a rock at over 300 yards .I'm looking to do some long range work with this gun 600 yards + .Now at this point I'm at a loss as what to do .I know the guys shooting Service rifle matches have to be pushing their bullets faster than 2200 FPS .I just kind of feel like giving up .I paied $1750.00 for a long range rifle to shoot the 168 gr bullet out of ,but now folks are telling me that this will tear up the gun I just don't know what to do .
Lou

 

[63November]

Yea Jim A funny thing ,on the IMR websight talking about H-110 & W 296 they say any powder without a starting load listed only a max load ,that all there powders should only be reduced by 3% because anything under that could lodge a bullet in the bbl due to lack of volosity .In the very next pargraph they say it's vrey air space sencitve and loads reduced more than 3% and that too much air space vs. powder volume could cause an EXPOLISION hazzard due to over perssure .Well which is it? It can't be both conditions at the same time LOL.

Actually, for any given shot, it could be either depending on exactly what happens. Certain powder types just don't burn well except under ideal conditions, hence the poor velocities. Then again, those same conditions can lead to an occasional unusual ignition event such as when powder ignites across the surface length of the charge rather than from behind it. So it can't be both ways on a single discharge, but it could be either, and you never know which one you'll get. H110/W296 are fine powders for stout loads. May other powders are well suited to lighter loads.

 

[tomisu]

When loading for an M1 Garand or an M1A you have two points on a pressure curve that must be met. The chamber pressure needs to spike around 50,000 psi and the port pressure for the gas cylinder needs to be around 6,000 psi. Bolt action guns do not have the requirement for port pressure and can handle a pressure curve that spikes further down the barrel.

2650 to 2700 fps for a 150 gr bullet is normal for an M1A load using the proper powder (IMR 4895, IMR 4064, Varget and Win 748 are the most popular). On a commercial offering the MV would be around 2900 fps (about 200 fps more). 2500 fps is about right using the above powders with a 168 gr MK for the M1A. Many people shoot 600+ yards using IMR 4064 and Sierra Match King 168 gr with a muzzle velocity of 2500 fps or less. That would be acheived with about 41 to 42 gr of powder - max load for that combo on a bolt gun is 45.9 gr compressed with a speed around 2750 (about 250 fps more). The powder loads you are showing above are proper for an M1A even though they seem low.

Load within those perameters for your M1A to find the best accuracy (I have better luck with Varget and IMR 4064 for long range accuracy with the SMK 168). If you do, you will wear the barrel out before any other part of the gun!

 

[Bucks Owin]

Yea Jim A funny thing ,on the IMR websight talking about H-110 & W 296 they say any powder without a starting load listed only a max load ,that all there powders should only be reduced by 3% because anything under that could lodge a bullet in the bbl due to lack of volosity .In the very next pargraph they say it's vrey air space sencitve and loads reduced more than 3% and that too much air space vs. powder volume could cause an EXPOLISION hazzard due to over perssure .Well which is it? It can't be both conditions at the same time LOL.

Actually, for any given shot, it could be either depending on exactly what happens. Certain powder types just don't burn well except under ideal conditions, hence the poor velocities. Then again, those same conditions can lead to an occasional unusual ignition event such as when powder ignites across the surface length of the charge rather than from behind it. So it can't be both ways on a single discharge, but it could be either, and you never know which one you'll get. H110/W296 are fine powders for stout loads. May other powders are well suited to lighter loads.

I can find no instance anywhere of W296/H110 detonating, I believe the only powder that has done that is 4831 on very rare (and misused) occasion. I think W296 is safe enough reduced even 10% but I also see little point in using it in the first place unless you want it's full tilt performance... :wink:

 

[cruzerlou]

Hey Buck,
Like I said A load of H-110 at 23.5 gr's under a 240gr XPT worked the action just fine on my Deerstalker ,now the only question is accuracy .I 've been told that that gun needs a right stout load to work the action and at 23.5 I'm not pushing the action real hard ,but enough for it to work relailby .This load has been very accuraty in both my revolvers too so having one load that will work in all 3 guns is a plus for me .At 23.5 gr's I'm not pushing the the bullet to the max ,I've tried max loads in my handguns and the groups are all over the place .Just backing off this much brought the groups in tight .
Lou

 

[Anonymous]

At 23.5 gr's I'm not pushing the the bullet to the max ,I've tried max loads in my handguns and the groups are all over the place .Just backing off this much brought the groups in tight .
Lou

Some good wisdom for all reloaders right there.
Every caliber I load for produces better groups if I back off a step (or 2) from max load in the manual.

 

[Bucks Owin]

All guns are laws unto themselves, some do better less than max, some group tightest with all the powder they can safely handle. No generalities apply IMHO, and I have a couple rifles that group best going full tilt...

 

[Anonymous]

All guns are laws unto themselves, some do better less than max, some group tightest with all the powder they can safely handle. No generalities apply IMHO, and I have a couple rifles that group best going full tilt...

Let me rephrase then since there are so many variables that come into play.
With the particular powders, primers, and bullets I use, in my particular rifles and pistols I load for, I personally get the best results when backed off a step or 2 from max.

Plus it's NEVER a bad idea to start low and work up to a MAX load.
***disclaimer*** This is my personal experience.

 

[Bucks Owin]

Plus it's NEVER a bad idea to start low and work up to a MAX load.

ALWAYS! :wink: