dadstillsurfs
Single-Sixer
Distilling liquor is Federally illegal, unless you follow all the rules, pay all the fees, etc.(45 second Interweb search)
https://www.ttb.gov/distilled-spirits/penalties-for-illegal-distilling
Bullet find today
- Thread starter deac45
- Start date
https://www.ttb.gov/distilled-spirits/penalties-for-illegal-distilling
gjgalligan
Blackhawk
Well? What did you learn?
Paul B
Hunter
When you sit down and think about it, just how many laws and regulations does the government that they can use against you? Then add the state and city/town/village laws and regulations there must be at least several million ways you can be charged with some kind of crime. Two that I remember from when I lived in California are a state law that states one must have a fire extinguisher in their vehicle. How many are in compliance? AFAIK, there is still on the books in San Francisco an ordinance that says one cannot drive their motor vehicle in Golden gate Park is the manufacturer's name is displayed on said vehicle in public view. Think abut that the next time you drive your Ford through the park on a nice warm afternoon.
In the case on the lady taking some cast bullets to a shop to be sold just may be illegal under the letter of the ATF gestapo regulations. However, in this case, the bullets were part of her DECEASED husband's estate, much of which had already be liquidated or attended to. If the bullets were a common design like Lyman #358495, commonly used .38 caliber wadcutter that most commercial cast bullet makers most likely make, who's to say her late husband made them? The woman didn't know what to do with them so she took them to an FFL to be properly disposed of. The FFL took them and did whatever she asked. Thix leaves these questions. Did she know her late husband cast those bullets and did she tell the FFL they were his home made bullets. It all may not be all that cut and dried.
Currently under the letter of the law, if I paid $400 for a Colt single acton new in the box with all papers that if I sold today for and easy $1,500 plus, I'd be in violation of the ATF regulations. I made a profit. Or did I? Thanks to inflation they may be little or no actual true profit with the only real increase would be the dollar amount. It could be the equal of the original $400 but the ATF Gestapo would see it as a $ 1,100 profit, inflation be damned.
Paul B.
In the case on the lady taking some cast bullets to a shop to be sold just may be illegal under the letter of the ATF gestapo regulations. However, in this case, the bullets were part of her DECEASED husband's estate, much of which had already be liquidated or attended to. If the bullets were a common design like Lyman #358495, commonly used .38 caliber wadcutter that most commercial cast bullet makers most likely make, who's to say her late husband made them? The woman didn't know what to do with them so she took them to an FFL to be properly disposed of. The FFL took them and did whatever she asked. Thix leaves these questions. Did she know her late husband cast those bullets and did she tell the FFL they were his home made bullets. It all may not be all that cut and dried.
Currently under the letter of the law, if I paid $400 for a Colt single acton new in the box with all papers that if I sold today for and easy $1,500 plus, I'd be in violation of the ATF regulations. I made a profit. Or did I? Thanks to inflation they may be little or no actual true profit with the only real increase would be the dollar amount. It could be the equal of the original $400 but the ATF Gestapo would see it as a $ 1,100 profit, inflation be damned.
Paul B.
I just realized that the original post did not say that the fellow had cast them himself but just that they appeared to be cast bullets. They could actually been commercial cast bullets.
contender
Ruger Guru
Well? What did you learn?"
I didn't post any follow-up answer,, because I didn't get to the ATF booth at SHOT. I got too busy elsewhere. And seeing all these posts here,, it's a moot point.
The letter of the law,, as noted in a post above,, is that we are all very likely to be breaking laws daily. It's up to the enforcing agency to catch us,, and decide if they THINK we are breaking a law. If they think so,, then they can decide if it's worth the efforts to proceed with a form of prosecution. Just like speeding. Often,, a few miles over the limit is illegal,, and the police officer who sees it,, or catches you at it,, can decide to pull you & write a ticket,, or say to themselves,, "it's only a few miles over the limit, & not worth the effort to pursue legal charges.
In this case,, lead cast bullets may or may not have been commercially manufactured. The lady was not "in business" acting as a dealer. The gun shop,, bought the bullets,, and yes,, they plan to sell them at a profit,, but they have a business license,, Unless an ATF agent went through ALL the FFL's invoices,, to determine where he got them,, it's highly unlikely they would uncover where the FFL bought them.
Then at the same time,, the ATF agent even if they found evidence of the purchase,, they most likely would not file any charges,, UNLESS they wanted to pad the booking charges with a lot, to allow a district attorney to "negotiate" a reduction in crimes in an effort to gain a conviction.
In other words,, it's VERY unlikely anybody would be charged in relation to the Op's posting. In fact,, I doubt that there has ever been a stand alone charge for such an activity.
Bullets are projectiles, they like fish weights.
Loaded cartridges may fall into another category due to the lack of excise tax being levied. During the O'Biden reigns of terror there was a shortage of ammunition, gun stores were getting it from anywhere they could. I'm sure some came from unlicensed manufacturers. In our area, everywhere there was a wide flat spot beside a secondary road there was a popup camper selling ammunition. Alot of it was bought at Wal-Mart when a shipment came in but I am sure center fire cartridges were made in Joe Blows basement.
If you look at the end flap of commercial ammunition, it doesn't say 50 bullets, it says 50 cartridges.
You don't have to have an FFL to sell ammunition, it is a commodity that can be sold without a license. Manufacturing ammunition for resale is another. matter. I think it requires an 05 license.
Right off the ATF.gov web page:
www.atf.gov/firearms/qa/license-required-engage-business-selling-small-arms-ammunition
No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only. However a license is required to manufacture or import ammunition. [18 U.S.C. 922 ...
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
Might want to learn to multi-quote to keep from taking up an entire page. It is illegal to sell non-commercially made bullets. It is therefore illegal to sell ammunition assembled using same. It is not illegal for an individual to sell commercially made bullets or commercially assembled ammunition. Hope this makes sense now. Sorry I did not explain all the steps. I thought it was pretty simple. Also tough to imagine gun stores selling ammo they knew wasn't commercially assembled.
I can nearly guarantee people have been prosecuted for selling home made bullets. My guess is it wasn't a stand alone charge but one of many brought due to a larger incident.
I posted last night a quote from the ATF website concerning the selling of ammunition. The manufacture of the projectiles was not beached. The manufacture of ammunition was mentioned, it expressed that the manufacture of ammunition (rifle, pistol and shotgun cartridges) requires a Federal License. Many of the uninitiated, unwashed, laymen refer to ammunition as "bullets" when they really mean cartridges/ammunition. When I was selling a preponderance of reloading supplies I sold approximately 1 1/2-2 tons of bullets i.e. projectiles per year. On the shipping manifests the projectiles were listed as "bullet heads" I think this term was because it was more descriptive and understandable for the unwashed laymen. BTW you don't need a Federal License to buy Smokeless Powder or Primers either.
From the many comments by "those in the know" concrete answers concerning the sale and manufacture of ammunition can be answered at the government web site www.atf.gov. Just go to the search block and type in a question.
Another occurrence of a gun store smart ass happened when I was teaching NC Concealed Handgun Course (23 years) an older lady came to the course. She had been by Rex's Guns on Upward Rd. to buy ammunition for the class. She had told the individual behind the counter she wanted a box of 9mm bullets. To get over on her (retired school teacher) he sold her a box of 100 Hornady 115 grain hollow point bullets (projectiles). Now did he do this out of spite, or his stupidity, or maybe he should have been astute enough, being a gun store employee/owner, to ask for clarification because of the confusion of the unwashed, uninitiated. It wasn't a major foul up, I also sold ammunition (no FFL required) so I swapped two boxes of Remington 115 gr FMJ for her box of Hornady hollow points. I think she came out ahead.
Ammunition and gun sales at Flea Markets is uncontrolled, the ATF rarely hit the local one, when they do the agents bring a school bus to haul off the malefactors. Being an FFL one of the requirements is that the license must be "clearly displayed". I once when through the local FM, a guy had a booth, the walls were covered with Hi-Points, I looked and looked at his counter and walls for the required "displayed" license. I didn't even find a ghost of a displayed 8x10 anything.
In post #15 of this thread I listed a URL to a webpage that explains this very well, for those seeking concrete answers. Read it and click the link to the definition of ammunition.
[H1]18 U.S. Code § 923 - Licensing[/H1]
(a)No person shall engage in the business ... ... ... manufacturing ammunition, until he has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney General.
[H1]18 U.S. Code § 921 - Definitions[/H1]
(a)As used in this chapter—
(17)
(A)
The term "ammunition" means ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder designed for use in any firearm.
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When I am interested in a law that I don't have complete understanding about, I search out the law and read it. Then try to understand it. But the most important thing is to look up case law about that law. There you will find what judges think and how the law has been applied.
In this example look up to see if and why people have been charged with any type of crimes mentioned without a license. There will be data on any case law regarding it. Myself I don't care and am not spending the time.
About 10 years ago I spend hours researching case law on enforcement of HR 218. The law that allows honorable retired police to CCW.
But remember case law can and does change sometimes.
In this example look up to see if and why people have been charged with any type of crimes mentioned without a license. There will be data on any case law regarding it. Myself I don't care and am not spending the time.
About 10 years ago I spend hours researching case law on enforcement of HR 218. The law that allows honorable retired police to CCW.
But remember case law can and does change sometimes.
I am not sure how old you are or how much experience you have in the "industry". I have been engaged in the FFL business for the last 20 years and been involved with firearms since 1964, never once in the last 61 years, in my knowledge, has anyone been charged with a crime for selling primers, powder, or bullets (projectiles) as individual components with a crime. I have known many to do so, and down South, Mom and Pop country stores have been selling ammunition without a license since I started noticing guns and ammunition when I was about 4 years old.
I will point out that I regularly get reports from the ATFE on prosecution successes of their agents. Naturally, their description in "definition" which is not necessarily "law" will be as broad and inclusive as possible just like their definition of ghost gun kits, arm braces, etc. which is not law but only their rulings. That is the problem with giving ATFE too much power with out congressional oversite. If I understand how law-making works, congress passes a law, then the agency who enforces the law, "writes" the code. After that happens the "code" gets written in to the "Congressional Record". A law just sits there until the Supreme Court says it is un-constitutional, then the law continues sitting until someone is charged with the crime.
People wouldn't have been doing it for the last 61 years if it were against the law. The point is US Code is not the LAW, neither is the definition.
As you have pointed out in other postings, your IQ surpasses 99.9% of that of all the members on the Forum, and your education certainly surpasses mine. I am sure your ability to quantify and qualify the twists and turns of US Law surpasses all understanding. Your next step is to SWAT me., I am sure you, with your infinite intellect, you already know my address.
You should go back and re-read the code, it said no person shall manufacture ammunition for sale with out a license, not that they could not re-sell legally manufactured ammunition with out a license. Big difference. And it did define the components of a cartridge as ammunition, which makes manufacturing non-licensed bullets for sale a so-called crime. I never said that anyone ever got in trouble for having done so, just that they should not brag about doing so on a public forum where Government agents lurk about.
P.S. - If you were going around making life altering threats I would definitely be concerned with your mental stability and therefore setup you an appointment with the FBI, but you do not come across as needing intervention - so whoopty do. Personally, I could care less how many laws one breaks so long as they do not violate other people's rights or cause a concern for their safety, which would include reckless conduct and terroristic threats.
P.S.S. - If my formal education surpasses yours's you have my sympathies.
It is my belief that ATFE are too busy looking for firearms violators to even bother with Bill Bob squatting over a charcoal fire in his back yard casting bullets. Even though he may have a SAECO automatic casting machine turning out thousands of bullets like my deceased friend Herman Stone did 40 years ago. Herman supplied bullets to every gun shop with reloading supplies throughout Western NC. BTW he was well known but he never had a FFL. Making a bullet takes as much skill as it takes to make a fishing weight. folks cast those too. I would consider the Code that mentions bullets is nothing more than words of alleged violations a mention of convenience for charging an individual with a crime or obtaining a warrant. A person with a lawyer worth his salt could and would point out that the "Code" forbidding the making bullets for sale unconstitutional. This has been done in defense of Ghost Guns or even scratch made guns. Individuals have been making bullets as long on the continent as the first European landed.
My opinion is you have too much time on your hands. More and more I get the feeling that you are nothing more than a person trolling this forum. After reading you responses, all 261 of them, you have contributed nothing but descension.
The dissention I delve out only goes toward the trolls whom belittled me first. So nanny nanny boo boo! Stick your head in poo poo. On the other hand if you ever get you head where the sun shines perhaps we could be more civil. Just saying, take it for what it's worth if you're capable.
Then again some just ain't got what it takes to recognize a genius.
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From the atf.gov web site and I copied from Q&A:The dissention I delve out only goes toward the trolls whom belittled me first. So nanny nanny boo boo! Stick your head in poo poo. On the other hand if you ever get you head where the sun shines perhaps we could be more civil. Just saying, take it for what it's worth if you're capable.
Then again some just ain't got what it takes to recognize a genius.
Is a license required to engage in the business of selling small arms ammunition?
No. A license is not required for a dealer in ammunition only. However a license is required to manufacture or import ammunition.
[18 U.S.C. 922 (a)(1)(B); 27 CFR 478.41]]
Last Reviewed April 12, 2022
I have a strong suspicion that :
Manufacture of propellant, and primers require a Federal License of some sort.
Manufacture of projectiles not so much as long as they are not armor piercing or explosive. ATF seems like they have their panties in a wad over these items.
Exactly.
No point in arguing against "a strong suspicion", so I'll politely agree to disagree here.
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
Argue all you two want to but you both are ignoring the word "manufacturing" that suggests commercial sales. Sure the rules are muddy but it is 100% illegal to sell ammo built at home and it is 100% illegal to sell bullets made at home. It is not at all illegal to sell any of those components that are MANUFACTURED or produced commercially whether they are sole components or assembled commercially. The suggestion a gun store would sell home made ammo is silly and stupid but possibly happens.
I agree with your assessment 100%, as that is what I have been trying to convey all along.Not an expert. Just my exposure to life. It seems a lot of procedures/ activities are illegal unless you purchase a permit, license or notify some higher authority. Maybe we broadcast what we do too frequently. Just my opinion.
GasGuzzler
Hawkeye
Both true.
I did spend some spare time (30 mins or more) trying to find any court cases charging anyone with selling homemade bullets without a license. I saw ammunition sales without a license. I didn't look into those cases but think it was importer or exporter of ammunition without a proper license. ATF cases almost always deal with firearms, legal and illegal type.
Thinking about Gun Shows I have attended in OR/WA/ID and knowing ATF does check those out. I have seen cast bullets for sale in plastic bags but never asked about who made them. I have cast thousands of bullets and would not buy any, anyway.
I have never read about anyone getting arrested for selling homemade cast bullets w/o a license but all that said I can't say it never has happened.
I am not going to do it and find out what happens.
Thinking about Gun Shows I have attended in OR/WA/ID and knowing ATF does check those out. I have seen cast bullets for sale in plastic bags but never asked about who made them. I have cast thousands of bullets and would not buy any, anyway.
I have never read about anyone getting arrested for selling homemade cast bullets w/o a license but all that said I can't say it never has happened.
I am not going to do it and find out what happens.
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