Hot vaquero

[movingmd]

So I picked up a ruger vaquero a few months ago. Blueing was gone, and the springs are weak. My gunsmith said don't shoot it, because it probably been in a fire. But another respected gunsmith said shoot it. I have made my min up as to what im doing with it. Just want to known what most on here would do.
I just want to do a poll. Would you restore and shoot it or wall hanger.

 

[skeeter]

We need more information. What caliber? If its a 357 then it has a lot more metal in the cylinder walls and 38 special may be ok. Pictures would help too. Is it a vaquero medium frame or the older large framed model? If one guy told me not to shoot it then I wouldn't shoot it. No sense suffering a needless injury.

 

[Chuck 100 yd]

Picture?

 

[schloss]

The only reason I can think not to shoot it is because the fire can have significant effect on the metallurgy, leaving you with a "mystery metal". You don't know how it responds to impact or stress, amongst other things.

Your springs are pretty good proof of this, but they may not tell you much about the rest of the gun. If they're weak, they've either yielded or softened. You could check one of them with a file if you're dead set on shooting it. If they're soft enough to file easily, there's a good chance that the rest of the gun has annealed slightly, as well. Still no guarantee, though.

I wouldn't shoot it until you know more. Even if I ever decided to shoot something like that, I would do extensive penetrant or magnetic testing on all of the components that would see impact or pressure, and a few other critical locations, then I would do some kind of "proof" testing from a position far away from the gun, and then I would do the penetrant and/or magnetic testing again. Also, I'd try to hit it with a sono-pen or something to try to know its relative hardness.

Yeah, I'm over-analyzing it. Sure, it would probably be fine to shoot. But, I'd still rather be safe, and not have any worries. My last used Blackhawk cost me $400. I consider that cheap in comparison to shoot something of unknown strength.

I still would like to see pictures.

 

[mohavesam]

Any competent gunsmith can perform a Rockwell test on the appropriate surfaces (i.e., cylinder,topstrap, barrel, recoil shield, etc. and determine if the hardness (temper) has been compromised from the factory specs. A tiny indentation is all that is left noticeable. Mag particle and FPI (flourescent penetrant inspection) will only identify linear (cracking) defects open to the surface, which would certainly indicate gross & irreparable damage.

Or just send the shooter to Ruger, job done.

A spring kit will set you back less than a big pizza, and then you have a serviceable revolver again. Sounds like your 'smith only guessed, which is not a smart man's approach when dealing with hand-held firearms.

 

[pisgah]

If a gun has been through a fire hot enough to affect the springs, I won't shoot it. The heat has been enough to alter the steel, and none of the possibilities are good if you try to shoot it.

 

[jbntx]

Why even consider shooting it when you know it's been in a fire and it's integrity is questionable?
If you found a WWII grenade, would you ask about pulling the pin to see if it was still live?

Why would you even buy such a gun and put yourself in that situation?

 

[GA Cracker]

Do you know for a fact the vaquero has been in a fire? Are you sure the springs are weak or could it possibly have an action job with the hammer and trigger springs replaced?
My cousin bought a revolver from an old farmer with the bluing rubbed off that the farmer carried every day in his overalls.

 

[eveled]

I wonder what would happen if you sent it back to Ruger for evaluation? There is a chance they would just replace it, rather than bother testing it, and assuming liability.

 

[movingmd]

It will be tomorrow before I can post pics. It's a .45lc large frame. All the springs are weak. It still has a long trigger pull to be a trigger job. And the only place that has any blueing on it is under where the ejector housing would be.
I have considered sending it to ruger. I may look at getting a hardness test done. What hardness should it be?

 

[PriseDeFer]

Does it function dry firing? If it does how did you determine that the springs are weak?

 

[rugerguy]

not too often that a firearm gets the brunt of any direct flames,most guns caught in "fires" the damage is the result of water, left in a basement or such........seen many that the grips burned off ,or melted and the gun it self was perfectly fine, replace and and all springs if they appear, seem or feel 'weak'...........it would have to be running off "molten meta"l for me to say NO......
got any pictures ??? it is far easier for the factory to say replace it, than screw around and restore it.................

here is a "before and after" of an old Blackhawk 3 digit gun from a fire out in Arizona.......





springs the only things that we replaced ( and never did see the original grips??) :roll:

and I did this one ,all by hand, no buffers or polishers......... :wink:

 

[movingmd]

It functions. Pull hammer back and pill trigger is good. But the hammer falls slow! And the trigger is the lightest I have ever felt on a revolver

 

[PriseDeFer]

Then maybe concentrate on how it looks. Does "blueing gone" look anything like rugerguy's picture?

 

[RUFFBIRD]

I would make a wall hanger with it & buy another! JMHO.

 

[ncrobb]

A friend in college had a .45 Colt Blackhawk when the house he lived in caught on fire. He sent it back to Ruger and they checked it, reblued and restocked it for him. I don't remember the cost but we were college kids with a zero budget for extras so it couldn't have been much.

 

[schloss]

Any competent gunsmith can perform a Rockwell test on the appropriate surfaces (i.e., cylinder,topstrap, barrel, recoil shield, etc. and determine if the hardness (temper) has been compromised from the factory specs. A tiny indentation is all that is left noticeable. Mag particle and FPI (flourescent penetrant inspection) will only identify linear (cracking) defects open to the surface, which would certainly indicate gross & irreparable damage.

Or just send the shooter to Ruger, job done.

A spring kit will set you back less than a big pizza, and then you have a serviceable revolver again. Sounds like your 'smith only guessed, which is not a smart man's approach when dealing with hand-held firearms.

The reason I suggested using MT and PT is due to the fact that they will reveal surface-breaking defects, and MT will additionally reveal near-surface defects. When this thing went through the fire, probably not too big of a deal, but if the fire was hosed out, you have potential for the formation of martensite, and with martensite, cracks. I still suggest doing one or both. It's quick and it's easy. Doesn't really even need to be fluorescent.

The sonopen will provide hardness value without leaving an indentation.

But all that aside, I agree it's probably smartest and cheapest to send it in to Ruger.

 

[mohavesam]

Good to see someone else approaching the problem in a controlled manner! Agree the MPI will (if done by a qualified inspector) reveal sub-surface defects down to potentially 0.050" depth... but any so-revealed would be manufacturing (casting) voids, as uncontrolled heating such as a fire wouldn't actually create voids in a high-strength casting. I suspect the "fire evidence" is minimal if any, as subjecting a Ruger revolver to the prolonged open flame necessary (approx 1400F for awhile) for re-tempering the casting would leave unmistakable tinting and most probably would melt small parts outright (de-soldering the front sight and certainly melting aluminum parts outright). The smallest springs would be rendereduseless (cylinder pin retention spring?) Still, these revolvers are rather inexpensive and I would replace it rather than roll the dice.

Speaking with Prescott staff, they would much rather have the gun returned for replacement. The issue here is liability, and once the user even suspects fire damage, he/she assumes 100% liability. The guy I talked to has looked at Rugerguy's pics and said the whole staff cringed at the thought someone is out there firing that gun!

Anyone suspecting fire damage or electrical arc damage needs to STOP using that gun and get a professional assessment!

 

[schloss]

I agree with mohavesam. Still would like to see some pictures.

 

[movingmd]

Someone will have to help me with figuring out how to load a photo

 

[movingmd]

http://s359.photobucket.com/user/movingmdbf/media/Mobile%20Uploads/1441669578440-1012397183_zpsw1q3votl.jpg.html?sort=3&o=1
Well there she is in all her glory. The only blueing is under where the ejector housing was. It didn't have it on there when I got it. The cylinder pin was held in place by a wood screw.
To anser why I got it, I knew it would be a risk. So I rolled the dice.

 

[rugerguy]

well from the pictures that gun is NOT that bad at all, looks more like someone "cleaned off" the bluing,who knows what got on the gun, during, or after the fire or when someone recovered it and wiped it down..........that gun does not even have "character".....simply reblue it is what I say........
look at the engraving on the cylinder carefully and see if any of the gold wash is still in the engraving, that is usually pretty tough to get it all out, and if NOT removed, cause imperfections in the final finish, I know this from doing some of these 'engraved' Vaquero guns over the years. That gun should come out pretty nice not a lot of handwork to do,see little ,if any pitting............

 

[Hondo44]

It will be tomorrow before I can post pics. It's a .45lc large frame. All the springs are weak. It still has a long trigger pull to be a trigger job. And the only place that has any blueing on it is under where the ejector housing would be.
I have considered sending it to ruger. I may look at getting a hardness test done. What hardness should it be?

I agree with Rugerguy! Pretty hard to ruin a gun in a house fire. Most that say OMG don't shoot it are those that know the least about it.

1. Rugers are not heat treated. They are cast chromium molybdenum steel and machined with some parts machined from chromium molybdenum bar stock, or 416 stainless just as it comes from the supplier.
2. Rugers I've tested for hardness are just below 20 Rockwell C, that's not very hard! The Ruger guy on Prescott staff won't even know that. And very few gunsmiths have a Rockwell tester!
3. Unless the metal has been changed to red and orange coloring, it never got hotter than to solder on the front sight.
4. I would change the springs, buy new grips, and shoot it as is or, send to Ruger:

Ruger service fees to Refinish revolver = $130: http://www.ruger.com/service/serviceFees.html
It’ll be done correctly w/o over buffing, etc., and you’ll get it back in 10 days. You can’t beat their service or even come close to it anywhere!

Actually Ruger's reblue jobs are better than original. It's not done by the regular production people who are cranking out new guns as fast as they can. It's done on the same type machinery though, so all the surfaces have the same polishing techniques and contours as new guns. But any flaws or sloppiness from the original factory blue is corrected and the gun has a higher polish than originally. They all seem to come back with their 'flagship' Super BH best finish.

I can still se what looks like the original bluing on the back edge of the hammer!

If the gun is seriously pitted from not being pulled out of the water after a fire, they may not be able to get them all out if too deep. You'll lose the cyl engraving to get those cyl pits out and they may still show. Ruger may ask if you want the cyl replaced.

 

[reloader]

Not sure if I'd have it re-blued...would have to see how it looked with a well worn set of grips on it.
I like nice new looking guns and antique looking guns though.
Variety can be a good thing.

 

[Hondo44]

reloader,

Good thought. That gun could be dipped in vinegar and have a great old patina, with or without removing the pits.

 

[BIgMuddy]

I've got one that looks a lot like this gun and mine has never been in a fire. It has just been used a lot since I got it new in 1993.

Dan

 

[Varminterror]

The fact that there's still bluing under the grips and under the ejector housing kinda suggests it wasn't fire. If it burned enough to burn off grips, it'd have ran off the bluing underneath.

To look at it, I'd believe it was intentionally "aged" sooner than I'd believe fire.

 

[6gun]

The picture shows lots of deep pitting on the cylinder and receiver the gun got rusty and someone removed the finish while trying to remove all the rust.

Was there any evidence of fire damage or are you just guessing that's how the finish was removed ? I don't see any.

Personally I say it was never in a fire or the solder holding the front sight into the barrel would have melted and the sight would have fallen off.

If the light springs bug you put a new spring kit in and go shoot it, I bet it shoots just fine.

Then off to be refinished once you know it fires.

 

[schloss]

A quick FYI on steel and heat:
(this is not a complete or conclusive description or paraphrase by any means)

It is absolutely impossible to not the quality of steel by the appearance. Any time you subject steel to heat, regardless what you think "high heat" is, you subject it to distinct change. Any time it is subjected to heat, and eventually cooled, but you have no idea how fast it has cooled, your best bet is to assume the worst. If it is heated, and then cooled quickly, such as by cooling with water or other liquid method, you will obviously cool the steel quickly. When this happens, you change the phase of the steel. Our favorite is to see steel in a normalized, or as worked condition, but the worst case scenario with fast quenching is martensite. Martensite is very hard, has poor ductility, and is prone to cracking.

You can't see it. Sure, you're probably fine with what you've got. Maybe it's safe. But ultimately, you have no idea, even with internet commentary. It makes no difference if Ruger tempers or otherwise treats their steel. If it's been through a fire, it received heat treatment of some sort, and we ultimately have no idea what sort of heat treating that is.

Any heating and cooling process can substantially impact the granular structure of the steel. The granular structure (in addition to the chemical makeup of the material and a few other factors) dictates the strength, toughness, ductility, etc. of the steel. You can't tell by looking at it. Yes, I deal with steel strengths daily. There is no way to determine anything from this without testing. Good heat treatment would be a close second, but totally inconclusive.

Obviously, this is a very short comment on steel. Not conclusive, but I hope you can understand what I'm getting at. If there are any questions on steel, I'd be happy to provide more information and direction. I'm not saying that any gun that has gone through a fire is unfit for use. However, I do want you all to be safe.

Be safe.

 

[6gun]

The gun was never in a fire plan as day from the pictures, finish was removed by what ever method was used to remove all the rust, I can even see Scotch Brite pad marks ( or what ever used) on the steel from rubbing the finish off.