Downside of an empty chamber

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Diabloman

Single-Sixer
Joined
Mar 19, 2022
Messages
221
Location
Ohio Territory
the downside is you might get shot and the perp takes you're gun? I carry a round chambered and only draw if there is a need. fwiw I CC to protect me and mine! same as wearing a mask....!
 

noahmercy

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
295
Location
Sheridan, WY
A few scenarios to consider:
*A big guy presses you up against a wall, gets in your face and produces a knife. You have room and time to pull your gun and manipulate the slide?
*During a struggle, you can get your gun out, but the mag release is smacked and the magazine falls to the ground. Would you rather have one shot (assuming you don't have a magazine disconnector safety) or none?
*Something has happened to your weak hand and it is disabled. Yes, you may be able to rack the slide one-handed by catching the rear sight on something and pushing, but do you have time and is your sight shaped properly?

In this litigious age, firearms are SAFE to carry with a round in the chamber. Most have two passive safeties, several have more, and some a manual safety as well. Way more likely to be killed or injured by a lightning strike than by a modern gun "going off" due to mechanical failure, so if someone is afraid to carry a firearm with a cartridge in the chamber, he probably should avoid leaving the house. Except he's more likely to have a serious or fatal accident there than a firearm malfunction. Well, darn...
 

Jeepnik

Hawkeye
Joined
Dec 16, 2005
Messages
5,514
Location
On the beach and in the hills
A few scenarios to consider:
*A big guy presses you up against a wall, gets in your face and produces a knife. You have room and time to pull your gun and manipulate the slide?
*During a struggle, you can get your gun out, but the mag release is smacked and the magazine falls to the ground. Would you rather have one shot (assuming you don't have a magazine disconnector safety) or none?
*Something has happened to your weak hand and it is disabled. Yes, you may be able to rack the slide one-handed by catching the rear sight on something and pushing, but do you have time and is your sight shaped properly?

In this litigious age, firearms are SAFE to carry with a round in the chamber. Most have two passive safeties, several have more, and some a manual safety as well. Way more likely to be killed or injured by a lightning strike than by a modern gun "going off" due to mechanical failure, so if someone is afraid to carry a firearm with a cartridge in the chamber, he probably should avoid leaving the house. Except he's more likely to have a serious or fatal accident there than a firearm malfunction. Well, darn...
Oh, I don't think I'd be grabbing a firearm. I'd likely, working from the ground up, stomp his instep, knee his groin and/or head butt him in the face. Of course this would all be taking place as I repeatedly stabbed him with my knife, starting from the ground up, in the groin, belly, kidneys, etc. This ain't TV. I'm gonna keep hitting, kicking and sticking until he is down and not moving.
 

noahmercy

Single-Sixer
Joined
Jun 13, 2015
Messages
295
Location
Sheridan, WY
Oh, I don't think I'd be grabbing a firearm. I'd likely, working from the ground up, stomp his instep, knee his groin and/or head butt him in the face. Of course this would all be taking place as I repeatedly stabbed him with my knife, starting from the ground up, in the groin, belly, kidneys, etc. This ain't TV. I'm gonna keep hitting, kicking and sticking until he is down and not moving.
Is everyone as physically capable of doing that as you? Would a slightly-built woman be able to perform these actions to a degree that it would allow time to get her gun out and chamber a round? What about the young guy with MS? An elderly gent? Not everyone is a big heroic indestructable knife-fighter like you. Some of us actually want to STOP the threat instead of getting sliced to ribbons trying to play Schwarzenegger or Segal...SMH.
 

Jeepnik

Hawkeye
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Dec 16, 2005
Messages
5,514
Location
On the beach and in the hills
First, I’m a 69 yo short fat guy. With bad knees, back and heart. Yet, I’m still capable of a few seconds of intense physical activity. Enough to disable even a health young male.

Second, in the situation set out I wouldn’t even consider reach for a gun.

A firearm is best as a stand-off weapon. That close I was taught, granted decades ago, to go hands on. Hit hard, fast and keep doing it as long as it takes or now as I can.

I’m not a testosterone filled kid. But I don’t figure I completely helpless. Though many want us to believe we are.
 

Pistolero

Hunter
Joined
Mar 22, 2013
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2,574
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Chama, NM-Our little piece of Heaven.
First, I’m a 69 yo short fat guy. With bad knees, back and heart. Yet, I’m still capable of a few seconds of intense physical activity. Enough to disable even a health young male.

Second, in the situation set out I wouldn’t even consider reach for a gun.

A firearm is best as a stand-off weapon. That close I was taught, granted decades ago, to go hands on. Hit hard, fast and keep doing it as long as it takes or now as I can.

I’m not a testosterone filled kid. But I don’t figure I completely helpless. Though many want us to believe we are.
I agree. And fight like a Bersrker.
 

Snake Pleskin

Hunter
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
2,180
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
If you find yourself in a quick draw situation, you probably have failed in the "situational awareness" department. I am sure someone will argue and have 101 examples of what could have been, but the facts are simple, most people will never find themselves in a situation where a 'quick" draw is needed if they are paying attention to what goes on around them. IMHO. I carry different firearms and practice with them to keep familiarity etc. but I do not carry 1911 pistols cocked & locked. All those who use them have at it, but I have been a trianr for decades and worked a class III range for years and more ND's were from 1911's then anything else. It is too easy to have the safety come off, it is two easy to touch the 2 lb trigger that many wannabees put in their firearm. I do not like striker fired pistols in appendix carry, and yes, many use them but i would rather use a "hammer" fired arm, like a SIg or CZ with a decocker. It is simple and provides considerably more safety when the firearm is pointed at your femoral artery or other more delicate areas! I have shot many firearms with many different triggers, and you can forget your reset, feel etc when the SHTF. Basics take over and training kicks in, and fine motor skills are long gone. I carried a 220 Sig for years and also a CZ 75 PCR in Europe, and the triggers worked just fine, first shot to the last! IMHO
 

GunnyGene

Hawkeye
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
6,793
Location
Monroe County, MS
Anyone practice tactical reloads?

 

andyk

Bearcat
Joined
Nov 8, 2014
Messages
31
In my years of shooting various speed competitions that require a draw, I have never seen an AD from a draw. I would venture to say I have done and observed 10s of thousands of draws and first shots with no negative actions. Safety and trigger discipline are drummed in at most match briefs. It is self induced but there is a bit of stress and adreline when the beep goes of in your ear. Point is, it's safe as long as the shooter is competent to carry loaded. Oh, and most do not have safties on their pistols, slows thing down.
 

kmoore

Buckeye
Joined
Mar 29, 2017
Messages
1,164
Location
Idaho
The down side to need to chamber a round before the gun is ready to fire in a CCW, self defense is time and the mental need to do and track multiple important stuff all at once. All who have done things under heavy stress can understand how the fine motor skills can and will fail unless highly trained. More tasks to do something, in this case see a threat and react to it. The more complex it gets to do your job the more time it takes. Or the more steps it takes the harder it gets and more time it takes to complete the task Shooting the threat. KISS works very well "Keep it simple, Stupid." We could list every move of each style step by step. I am not chambering a round before any gun will fire while in a self defense situation. Far to much more work. Remember self defense is reacting to a threat. Even seasoned cops freeze in a shoot or don't shoot situation. All they normally need to do is grip gun, unholster, point and pull a trigger. At 3 yards time is everything, you had better already been mastered in hitting a human target.
 

GunnyGene

Hawkeye
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Nov 23, 2013
Messages
6,793
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Monroe County, MS
The down side to need to chamber a round before the gun is ready to fire in a CCW, self defense is time and the mental need to do and track multiple important stuff all at once. All who have done things under heavy stress can understand how the fine motor skills can and will fail unless highly trained. More tasks to do something, in this case see a threat and react to it. The more complex it gets to do your job the more time it takes. Or the more steps it takes the harder it gets and more time it takes to complete the task Shooting the threat. KISS works very well "Keep it simple, Stupid." We could list every move of each style step by step. I am not chambering a round before any gun will fire while in a self defense situation. Far to much more work. Remember self defense is reacting to a threat. Even seasoned cops freeze in a shoot or don't shoot situation. All they normally need to do is grip gun, unholster, point and pull a trigger. At 3 yards time is everything, you had better already been mastered in hitting a human target.
I really hope we are never forced to rely on Kentucy Pistols. Chambering a round can take some serious time. ;)

OX6lGWH.jpg
 

Selena

Hunter
Joined
Sep 13, 2013
Messages
2,862
Location
A long way from heaven and far too close to Chicag
First, I’m a 69 yo short fat guy. With bad knees, back and heart. Yet, I’m still capable of a few seconds of intense physical activity. Enough to disable even a health young male.

Second, in the situation set out I wouldn’t even consider reach for a gun.

A firearm is best as a stand-off weapon. That close I was taught, granted decades ago, to go hands on. Hit hard, fast and keep doing it as long as it takes or now as I can.

I’m not a testosterone filled kid. But I don’t figure I completely helpless. Though many want us to believe we are.
I was told in a situation like that to start hitting all the places Sister Beatrice told me nice Catholic girls didn't hit boys. He also told me to scream at the top of my lungs using phrases like "guts for garters" and "testicles for beads." And that in a violent struggle there are no winners or losers, only survivors. All in a voice with no more emotion than talking about the weather.
 

pjinak

Bearcat
Joined
Oct 11, 2009
Messages
96
Location
Alaska
I ran across this years ago and it sure seemed to make sense to me... YMMV

"Some people narrow their focus and see everything through the exclusive lens of gunfighting.
But that's confusing means with ends. The purpose of carrying a gun is not to win gunfights. That's a means to an end.
The purpose of carrying a gun is to make you safer; the means is maybe a gunfight.

But, for every gunfight you're probably not going to be in, you'll do thousands of administrative handlings (load, unload, draw, holster, put in the safe, etc., etc., etc.). Every one of them is a chance of an ND.
So, the proper risk assessment is not to look only at gunfights, but at the entirety of your risks.

Carrying chamber empty is simply reassigning risk: you're adding a small risk to some small subset of gunfights, but you're subtracting a real risk of NDs.
It's a trade-off, like everything else. It's not for everyone, but then there is no one rule true for everyone either."
 

Snake Pleskin

Hunter
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
2,180
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
What you do on the "square range" rarely translate into what happens on the street. Gross motor skills instilled by countless repetitions help in the manipulation of the inanimate object, but how many repetitions do you actually have of being in a life threatening immediate danger close situation. I would venture for 99.5%, None! You want to go home each night? Then situational awareness, avoidance, & clear thinking will do it much better than your 4 point draw or tactical reload! IMHO People are rarely if ever killed on the street by "pros". More likely it's the low life, wannabee, untrained criminal who has never been to "Gunsite", that ruins your day!
 

Snake Pleskin

Hunter
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
2,180
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
I ran across this years ago and it sure seemed to make sense to me... YMMV

"Some people narrow their focus and see everything through the exclusive lens of gunfighting.
But that's confusing means with ends. The purpose of carrying a gun is not to win gunfights. That's a means to an end.
The purpose of carrying a gun is to make you safer; the means is maybe a gunfight.

But, for every gunfight you're probably not going to be in, you'll do thousands of administrative handlings (load, unload, draw, holster, put in the safe, etc., etc., etc.). Every one of them is a chance of an ND.
So, the proper risk assessment is not to look only at gunfights, but at the entirety of your risks.

Carrying chamber empty is simply reassigning risk: you're adding a small risk to some small subset of gunfights, but you're subtracting a real risk of NDs.
It's a trade-off, like everything else. It's not for everyone, but then there is no one rule true for everyone either."
There is always a trade off, which is why I do not carry 1911 style auto's. Too many bad things can happen when I do not want them too! I'll take a double action SIG 226 or CS 75 any day of the week. IMHO
 

Durango Dave

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
82
most people will never find themselves in a situation where a 'quick" draw is needed if they are paying attention to what goes on around them.
Boy, do I disagree with this statement! If there is one chance in 10,000 that a quick draw will be needed someday, then practice for that day.
If you have someone threatening your life with a gun in a robbery or whatever. If he turns to show you the back of his head and you have a 2 second draw to first shot you can take down the threat.
If he turns to show you his ear you only need a 1.5 second draw to first shot.
PRACTICE your fast draw and know your draw time.
If you watch Active Self Protection videos on Youtube. You can see many real life videos of self defense. It's amazing how many robbers simply wave a gun around thinking everyone will submit. If there are multiple victims the robber can't keep his eyes on everyone.
Be prepared for these situations by keeping a round in the chamber and know your draw time. When the time comes you need to know when you can fight back and when you must submit or get killed.
 

Snake Pleskin

Hunter
Joined
Mar 26, 2022
Messages
2,180
Location
Aiken, South Carolina
Boy, do I disagree with this statement! If there is one chance in 10,000 that a quick draw will be needed someday, then practice for that day.
If you have someone threatening your life with a gun in a robbery or whatever. If he turns to show you the back of his head and you have a 2 second draw to first shot you can take down the threat.
If he turns to show you his ear you only need a 1.5 second draw to first shot.
PRACTICE your fast draw and know your draw time.
If you watch Active Self Protection videos on Youtube. You can see many real life videos of self defense. It's amazing how many robbers simply wave a gun around thinking everyone will submit. If there are multiple victims the robber can't keep his eyes on everyone.
Be prepared for these situations by keeping a round in the chamber and know your draw time. When the time comes you need to know when you can fight back and when you must submit or get killed.

Find yourself in a lot of these situations? Apparently you missed the statements about being aware, paying attention and avoiding the situation, or are you another one who thinks his great skills will save the day, when having never been in a real live street fight with firearms you have no ideal of what can & will go wrong? Just wondering? Have at it if it makes you feel safer. I prefer to not ever get in another situation that requires firearms.
 

Durango Dave

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 11, 2017
Messages
82
Find yourself in a lot of these situations?
Nope, never.
If you ask a small group of people they will say they never had to defend themselves in a life or death situation.
So are we to conclude that people never need to defend their life? Hell no! We prepare ourselves for the rare times when we DO need to defend our lives.

Apparently you missed the statements about being aware, paying attention and avoiding the situation, or are you another one who thinks his great skills will save the day, when having never been in a real live street fight with firearms you have no ideal of what can & will go wrong? Just wondering? Have at it if it makes you feel safer. I prefer to not ever get in another situation that requires firearms.

The criminal sets the time of the attack. Yes you may notice something suspicious but you can't assume you will always be able to tell someone is about to pull a gun on you.
Even if you do notice someone acting suspicious do you draw your gun at the first sign he's acting strange? No the criminal will (with rare exceptions) be able to draw his weapon before you.
 
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