Double Action Finger Movement.

[meshugunner]

IMO if you own a DA revolver for self defense, you need to master DA trigger control. This is hard! At least I find it so. I've practised dry firing many thousands of times and my technique is marginal. Depending on how I hold my tongue and the whims of the Trigger Gods, I sometimes get results approaching my SA.

I am really surprised that I don't find more detailed explanations of how to perform this complex and tricky motion.

"Just pull it straight back at a constant rate" is about as useful as saying "Just hit the target". The finger naturally swings in an arc. The trigger itself moves in another arc. Just sweeping the finger back will move the sights left and up (in my hand).

The finger motion has to be more complex and compensate for these arc like motions. In the book Revolver/Cunningham he advocates sliding the finger down and across the trigger in such a way that if feels as if the finger tip is about to slip off the trigger.

I've tried this and convinced myself that it can work but sometimes my finger pad is slick and slides smoothly. Sometimes it feels sticky and drags.

What works for me is to place my finger diagonaly across the trigger face instead of horizontal and roll the point of contact down and across the trigger face as I sweep. It feels as if I am wagging my finger down and scolding someone

A couple of other things seem important. Isolating the trigger finger from the grip is crucial - without that nothing works - well OK we all knew that anyway. The other is to start with a perfectly neutral pull. If the start of pull deflects the barrel in any way, this stores tension in the grip which is balanced by the force on the trigger. As soon as the trigger breaks, the barrel will pop back to it's original postion.

This is about where I am in my pursuit of DA trigger control. I'd much appreciate any comments or advice on this topic.

 

[WESHOOT2]

WHAT I DO:

I take my revolvers out of the safe and shoot USPSA matches with them (note: prior to numerous surgeries; I'm confident I'll be ready this summer to again compete with the 7.5" 357 and/or 5.5" 44 Redhawks).

No fancy 'race crap', just my Sparks HSR and HKS speedloaders.
And a "workin' load".....


One very quickly begins to recognize the control rapid DA works demands.
Practice THAT, ay?




ps it's tons of funs :mrgreen:

 

[contender]

One thing you might consider.
Jerry Miculek offers an excellent DVD on revolver shooting. Get that & study the master. You will learn a lot.

 

[5of7]

If I pull the trigger double action until the cylinder locks into position and then refine my aim to finish the shot, the groups are very nearly the same size as shooting single action ( 3'' to 4" two handed at 25 yds). This requires that the gun be timed right for it to work, but it works for me.

The tricky part is in achieving the right timing without the gun going off ahead of time....it takes practice.

On the other hand, if I am just shooting double action to simulate a personal defense application, the groups become about 8" at 30 feet......which might be all right in a gun fight or to stop a charging pig or such, but otherwise not very useful. 8)

 

[DGW1949]

A lot of modern-day DA revolvers has some sort of a flat area, somewhere along the top of it's barrel. Lay a dime up there as close to the front sight as you can get it, and practice dry-firing untill you can do it without the dime falling off.

By the time you can consistantly do that, shot after shot, you've perty-much mastered the trigger-control thing.

DGW.....who can't do it either.:wink: .

 

[meshugunner]

Miculek's DVD is the last thing I watched before starting this thread. While there is good info there about trigger control, it mostly has to do with fast cycling and there is little detail about how to actually pull the trigger.

@5of7: Correct me if I am wrong but you are describing something called 'staging the trigger'. I can do this and get pretty good accuracy but I was told that one should learn to do DA with an uninterrupted smooth stroke.

The coin exercise: I do this with various hard to balance items. I can't yet do it with a quarter. I also have a laser bore alignment tool that projects a spot onto the wall.

http://goo.gl/L0gHc

I can watch the spot bounce as I pull the trigger. My little cat thinks this is great fun!

Both of these are excellent diagnostics but in the end trying to pull the trigger without disturbing the barrel is pretty much like saying 'Pull the trigger straight back without moving the sights off target" It lacks some details.

I am hoping to hear more details about the finger stroke itself. Mebbe everyone else just pulls the trigger smoothly and doesn't worry about the details of which joint is moving when etc.

Perhaps I am over thinking this but having made a lot of progress I am stalled. Sometimes the sights are rock steady. Sometimes they shift a little but end up on target at the end of the stroke. Sometimes they bounce off target. I am never able to lock on to the right motion and repeat it enough to develop muscle memory. And of course, whatever I can do at home with dry firing never works at the range.

I am sorry to make a big deal out of this but I have to think that other people struggle with this too and while SA trigger control is covered in exquisite detail multiple places, there is precious little about DA finger movement.

http://goo.gl/iFJ9J

 

[Snake45]

@5of7: Correct me if I am wrong but you are describing something called 'staging the trigger'. I can do this and get pretty good accuracy but I was told that one should learn to do DA with an uninterrupted smooth stroke.

I agree with this. IMO, revolver DA work should be done as quickly as one can get GOOD hits. If you are shooting DA with some technique that takes LONGER to do than it would take you to cock the hammer and squeeze off a nice SA shot (and this can be done pretty darn quickly), then it is time to rethink your priorities. There are exceptions to this, such as if one is playing some sort of competitive game (such as PPC) that has generous time limits but requires DA work, OR if you are mandated/ordered to carry a DA revolver that has been modified to shoot DA ONLY, and you are working on, say, shots of 50 yards (or more)--for which you would normally and naturally use SA fire IF your gun still had SA capability. Notice that both of these exceptions involve artificially induced "rules."

 

[CigarGuy]

Timely subject for me as I've rotated my carry pistol back to the S&W 642 which is the one without the hammer, as I wanted to force myself to shoot double action.
It's the lightest one of my "J" -sized frames(have a couple old colts) and, by far, the heaviest pull. Maybe 10-12 lbs or so.
Just yesterday, went out to the exercise store(that was a first) and got a "Grip Master" 9 lb tension device. Especially with my off(left) hand, I don't
want the lack of "strength" to hinder the rest of the crap that will take range time to master.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Double-action only pistols also have a long trigger pull by necessity. For a real challenge try shooting one handed and weak handed, skills that should be learned. :shock:

 

[gunboat57]

I do like 5of7 said. On my DOA SP101 you can hear the bolt drop into the cylinder notch, just a skosh more pull and the hammer drops. My Security Six can be staged the same way. My groups DA aren't as good as shooting it SA though.
If I'm trying to shoot fast DA, what helps me cut down my groupspray is to imagine I'm pulling the trigger right back into my eye.

 

[Jimbo357mag]

Two things to remember and to think about when shooting are sight picture and trigger pull. They say a laser can be invaluable in dryfire practice because it shows just how much the gun is moving.

 

[meshugunner]

Here an online article by Grant Cunningham that discusses the details of the double action press.

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/handguns/dealing-with-the-double-action-trigger/

I realize that an uninterrupted DA trigger pull can never deliver the same accuracy as a SA shot. Miculek himself stages the trigger for long range shots - though what he considers long range is about 6x my definition.

I would like to to be able to do a fast double tap to center of mass @15yds and not have the bullets whizz past his left ear.[/url]

 

[meshugunner]

I went over Miculek's Advanced Pistol Shooting video and found something that I missed.

When discussing rapid fire he says, several times, that the 'trigger must be ahead of the sights' because of the long pull. He explains that even before you acquire the sights for the next shot, you start pulling the trigger so that by the time you get sighted you are most way through the DA pull and about ready to break.

As I understand it, this means he is not sighting until the last stage of the trigger pull which is very similar to staging the trigger or perhaps he really is momentarily staging the trigger.

In either case, doing it this way seems to get me much better results. I don't have to keep the sights aligned throughout the whole pull, just at the last stage.

 

[glockman99]

Smooth, even pull. Don't tighten or loosen the grip as you pull through the trigger. Don't forget to breathe. Image in your mind hitting the target where you want the bullet to go...Zen.

 

[WESHOOT2]

It is my understanding that JM does not 'stage' his DA pull......

 

[Rclark]

Another reference is Ed McGivern's Fast and Fancy Shooting book. He was an another master of the DA (and really any revolver you put in his hands).

http://www.amazon.com/Fast-Fancy-Revolver-Shooting-McGivern/dp/0832905577


Other than that, I can't help you as I do all my shooting SA....

 

[Hammerdown77]

He (Jerry Miculek) also uses the pad of his trigger finger on the face of the trigger, like you are instructed to do with single action revolvers and pistols. This is also the reason he prefers a grooved trigger.

This is contrary to most revolver shooting technique that says to put the finger further into the trigger guard, such that the first joint is on the trigger (or even further). This affords more leverage and control.

JM has hands like a vise. Very strong hands and fingers, so he can stroke a DA revolver trigger with the tip of his trigger finger at lightning speed. Most of us can't do this. You need to find what works for you.

Don't practice "staging" a revolver trigger, unless you are taking a looooong shot and have all the time in the world. Some revolvers that have had a top level trigger job are very hard to stage, because there's no discernible point in the trigger pull at which you know to stop; they are too smooth.

Use dummy rounds mixed in with your live rounds at the range to see what your sights are doing when the shot breaks. You can easily catch the sights darting downward, especially if you are "milking the grip" with your other fingers when trying to shoot DA rapidly.

 

[WESHOOT2]

(He says pad for wheels, joint for 1911)

 

[Snake45]

Don't practice "staging" a revolver trigger, unless you are taking a looooong shot and have all the time in the world.

This is GOOD advice that bears yet another repetition.

Keep in mind the question: "Exactly what is it that you're trying to do?"

:wink:

 

[orygunmike]

Here is an article by Grant Cunningham, well known Revolver-ologist, entitled "Mastering the Double Action Trigger"

http://www.personaldefensenetwork.com/articles/handguns/dealing-with-the-double-action-trigger/

IMO if you own a DA revolver for self defense, you need to master DA trigger control. This is hard! At least I find it so. I've practised dry firing many thousands of times and my technique is marginal. Depending on how I hold my tongue and the whims of the Trigger Gods, I sometimes get results approaching my SA.

I am really surprised that I don't find more detailed explanations of how to perform this complex and tricky motion.

 

[wolfee]

I think some people would be surprised at how much a different grip can effect the dynamics of trigger pull. When I shoot my GP100 with the short FS grip, and my pinky is right on the bottom corner (half on the front and half on the bottom), I consistantly center groups about 6" to the right at 25 yards. When I put the long AS grips on, and all fingers are wrapped around the front of the grip, windage is dead on.

 

[anachronism]

Dry fire, dry fire, dry fire. Make certain the guns unloaded (of course), and sit in your living room, dry firing. At first, concentrate on refining your trigger squeeze so the front sight doesn't move while you dry fire. Do this a lot, and often, until you get the feel of the trigger, and how your trigger technique makes the sights move. Once you're fairly comfortable with this, go to the range and practice with live ammo at 7 yards, playing "chase the bullet hole" To do this you fire one shot into a blank target (I use 3X5 index cards), then slowly fire the remaining shots in the cylinder double action. The object of the game is to make all the bullets go through the same hole in the target. This will not happen immediately, but with practice will eventually happen. Then move the target to 10 yards and further as you gain experience & control. One word about staging the trigger, I do it at longer ranges sometimes as a crutch of sorts, but most of the "big boys" don't do it at all. IIRC, Jerry prefers a straight through pull, and staging the trigger just slows him down. He also uses full power trigger return springs to speed up the trigger return time. I guess that's why he's the champ, and nobodys ever heard of me.

 

[SAJohn]

Actually, I can 'stage' pull a DA trigger pretty darn fast.

Here is a tip I accidentally discovered that I have never seen in print, rub hand cream in good before any shooting session. It also helps with single action work.

 

[SL1]

My DA trigger techinique evolved for hunting purposes, so it might not be as applicable to self-defense shooting.

But, I learned to grip the gun so that my trigger finger WILL contact the frame just before the trigger breaks. It is sort of like a poor-man's over-travel limiter. the sight does not move when the trigger breaks. I can quickly stage the trigger to a point that I know by feel is near the break, and then fire when appropriate. That might be immediately, or significantly later. And, I can "decock" by simply releasing the trigger. This has worked well for me for decades with an old Security Six, which has become as smooth as silk through use. But, it requires me to make a careful grip, which is OK for hunting, but maybe not so easy to do in an unplanned self-defense situation.

It also requires messing with the grip of a new gun to get a similar feel.

SL1

 

[SL1]

Whether or not the backstrap should be covered or uncovered for shooting with the finger contacting the frame depends on how big your hands are. In my case, covering the backstrap is what makes it necessary to carefully adjust my grip. But, I like that backstrap covered when I touch-off hot hunting loads multiple times for practice.

On the GP, with the grip stud instead of a grip frame, it is possible to cut the rubber grip back as much as necessary to gt the best dimension between trigger and back of grip for just about any person's hand. (Of course, you can buy/make larger grips for any gun to fit large hands.)

I still need to get springs and a trigger job on my GP before I can see if I will end-up with a grip that I can grab instinctively and end-up with my finger feeling the frame in the manner that I have become accustomed to with my Securtiy Six. I think it is likely to work-out just fine, and it is one reason that I bougth a GP.

SL1

 

[Snake45]

Wehther or not the backstrap should be covered or uncovered for shooting with the finger contacting the frame depends on how big your hands are.

SL1

It also depends, of course, on the size of the gun and the user's hand's relationship to it. It's about how far the "backstrap"--whatever form it takes--is from the trigger, not whether it's "covered" or not.

 

[Snake45]

Wehther or not the backstrap should be covered or uncovered for shooting with the finger contacting the frame depends on how big your hands are.

SL1

It also depends, of course, on the size of the gun and the user's hand's relationship to it. It's about how far the "backstrap"--whatever form it takes--is from the trigger, not whether it's "covered" or not.

That is common sense. I didn't think I needed to explain it.

I didn't think so either, but your post read sort of like you thought the covering or uncovering of the backstrap was a big deal. Covering it of course lengthens the "reach" dimension, and whether this is a good or bad thing depends on the basic dimension of the gun itself. :wink:

And FWIW, I'm with you--the reach of the Smith K frame is nearly perfect for me and I don't want anything covering it at all. But it's a different story with a Smith J frame or a Cold D frame. :wink:

 

[meshugunner]

I very much appreciate all the contributions to this thread.

I have short fingers and trigger reach is always an issue for me. I buy or modify grips so that there is as little material as possible over the backstrap.

I have a Taurus 992 convertible that has a huge 'ribber' grip which I hate. I really can't control it. I've looked around for a replacement but there are none that I can find. I am considering making my own but it's tricky to design so that there is no material behind the strap since it's one of those peg frames.

 

[meshugunner]

Update:

When I started this thread, I could barely manage to stay on the paper @7yds. Since then, I've dryfired DA many thousands of times and experimented with all sorts of placement and pull techniques. I took my 686 down to the range today and shot some 1.5" @ 10yds which at my level of marksmanship is very satisfactory. I also shot some wild groups but I know why that happens and I just need practice to get consistent.

The discussion in this thread helped a great deal. So thank you.

The mechanics of an accurate DA pull are quite complicated and subtle. On top of that, everyone's hands and musculature are different so there is no single magic solution. This was quite clear from the discussion above.

Here are the things that made it work for me:

Seat the trigger against the crease of the top joint rather than using the pad as I do for SA

Start the pull so that the sights do not move. This seems to be crucial. The sights can wobble a bit during the pull but if it starts wrong nothing works.

About halfway through the pull start to curl the finger tip around the trigger. This compensates for the tendency of the finger to push the gun sideways as it travels through an arc.

Pull the trigger straight back or slightly up to avoid shooting low.

A smooth and unhesitating pull through the break without staging. Staging by hesitating at the last moment seems to make things much worse. Deliberate staging, that is stopping just before the break, aiming and shooting almost as if SA gave good accuracy but it's not what I am after right now.

Adjust the sight picture as the trigger approaches the break point but dont worry about it too much before then.

Check frequently for flinch.

Thousands upon thousands of dry fires. Sticking a tight fitting pencil or a cheap laser bore sight in the barrel will exaggerate any problems. Practice some with a loose grip so that you don't suppress problems in the pull by brute force.

I am not saying this is a magic recipe that will work for everyone. It's what I did to make things work for me. Some of it might be useful to others. As I have said before, while there is plenty of discussion about mastering the SA trigger, there is very very little about DA which is a much more difficult movement. Cunningham's article is the only detailed discussion that I have found. After reading his article I had a much better understanding of the problems involved but I could not make his 'slide the finger across the trigger face' work reliably.

Again, thanks to everyone who contributed to this thread.

 

[deac45]

Here's something I discovered by accident. Clamp your revolver by the barrel in a padded vice. Now, take your normal firing grip and work the action. With your gun locked down in the vise you can really feel your hand moving around on the grip. Learning to isolate my trigger finger from the other four helped me the most.

Deac45