Just to comment on bub's post briefly: Michael Platt pretty much carried the fight single-handed. He inflicted all the damage done to the FBI that day. William Mattix was never an effective participant throughout the entire incident. Had he been as effective as Platt, there is little doubt the entire squad of FBI would have been killed.
Does the famous FBI shoot-out concern you by carrying a 9mm.
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welder
Buckeye
leejack":r3x0pfh9 said:
Indeed. Very good post.
redoktober
Bearcat
- Joined
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The .38 was enough, the 9mm wasn't. Matix was incapacitated by McNeill's 2.5" Model 19 which was loaded with 158 gr. .38 Special loads. Go figure.
Look, the 9mm is fine so long as you aren't trying to battle a hate-filled assailant with special forces training whose toting a mini-14 assault rifle with two high capacity magazines taped together. Seriously.
In that scenario no handgun will put you on equal footing w/ an assault rifle. The problem in Miami wasn't caliber choice or how the agents used their handguns so much as it was guys with handguns taking on a guy w/ a 12 gauge and a guy w/ a mini-14. Get real. Dove made a great shot w/ his 9mm. Perhaps a 357, 45 ACP, etc., would have ended it, but there's no gaurantee. With a harder kicking caliber he may have missed completely. You can "what if" the scenario to death, but I think the attention focused on the sidearm and caliber is more political than practical.
Bottom line? Agents making a felony stop on two suspected bank robbers with a history of violence should be armed with shotguns and assault rifles. Unfortunately the two guys closest to the action, Dove and Grogan, had their 12 gauge in the trunk. Frankly, I think the agents involved acted fairly heroically and did well given the circumstances. They had numbers, but not firepower, on their side. Mirales used his shotgun before finishing Matix and Platt with his revolver. That was with a .223 wound to his forearm. McNeill fought wounded hand before getting temporarily paralyzed by the .223 while going for his shotgun. They scored hits and remained calm. I don't think we could ask more of those guys.
So yeah, I wouldn't let the situation in Miami deter you from using a 9mm. If given a choice, try packing a shotgun or assault rifle.
Look, the 9mm is fine so long as you aren't trying to battle a hate-filled assailant with special forces training whose toting a mini-14 assault rifle with two high capacity magazines taped together. Seriously.
In that scenario no handgun will put you on equal footing w/ an assault rifle. The problem in Miami wasn't caliber choice or how the agents used their handguns so much as it was guys with handguns taking on a guy w/ a 12 gauge and a guy w/ a mini-14. Get real. Dove made a great shot w/ his 9mm. Perhaps a 357, 45 ACP, etc., would have ended it, but there's no gaurantee. With a harder kicking caliber he may have missed completely. You can "what if" the scenario to death, but I think the attention focused on the sidearm and caliber is more political than practical.
Bottom line? Agents making a felony stop on two suspected bank robbers with a history of violence should be armed with shotguns and assault rifles. Unfortunately the two guys closest to the action, Dove and Grogan, had their 12 gauge in the trunk. Frankly, I think the agents involved acted fairly heroically and did well given the circumstances. They had numbers, but not firepower, on their side. Mirales used his shotgun before finishing Matix and Platt with his revolver. That was with a .223 wound to his forearm. McNeill fought wounded hand before getting temporarily paralyzed by the .223 while going for his shotgun. They scored hits and remained calm. I don't think we could ask more of those guys.
So yeah, I wouldn't let the situation in Miami deter you from using a 9mm. If given a choice, try packing a shotgun or assault rifle.
Two more important lessons from that fight:
1. If you're nearly blind without your glasses, put an athletic-type strap on 'em if you're going to go charging around doing action-type stuff.
2. If you're in a moving car and you feel a gunfight coming on, DO NOT take your pistol out and lay it on the seat of the car so it will be "handy." If/when the fight comes, it'll be much quicker to draw the thing from its holster, under your jacket, than to try to find it wherever it ends up after the crash.
1. If you're nearly blind without your glasses, put an athletic-type strap on 'em if you're going to go charging around doing action-type stuff.
2. If you're in a moving car and you feel a gunfight coming on, DO NOT take your pistol out and lay it on the seat of the car so it will be "handy." If/when the fight comes, it'll be much quicker to draw the thing from its holster, under your jacket, than to try to find it wherever it ends up after the crash.
Because the account, as I explained it, agrees with accounts from those involved and/or experts who carefully researched the subject.
What you're saying is that you want the forum to provide practical advice based on a completely hypothetical scenario that could never occur in the real world. Can't be done.
According to the FBI's expert, ALL ELSE BEING EQUAL, that might provide you with a benefit in 1 out of 100 shootings.
All else isn't equal. So now we have to get away from the unrealistic, hypothetical situation and start dealing with practical issues.
So the question now becomes: Does selecting a .45 or 10mm pistol provide ANY disadvantage or combination of disadvantages that might provide a negative benefit in more than 1 out of 100 shootings?
If it doesn't then going with a .45 or 10mm would not be unreasonable. If it does then it probably wouldn't be a good decision.
But, the point is that according to our FBI expert, in either case, switching from the 9mm, purely on the basis of terminal performance would be making a decision based on a possible 1% advantage.
No, they never switched from 9 to .40. They switched from 9 to 10mm and then later to .40.
You provided the background information that you used to generate your opinion and your question. Unfortunately nearly every bit of information you provided was incorrect. Before addressing the question, it seemed logical to get you on a proper footing first. It's hard to make good decisions based on incorrect information.
There is no contradiction. They never issued FULL POWER 10mm ammunition and therefore there was no opportunity to find out that "many female agents could not handle the recoil.". They did issue the downloaded 10mm that they settled upon in their testing which was conducted before any pistols were issued.
I apologize the link I posted above doesn't contain the information I thought it did. This account has more of the information I was referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
Ammunition has improved in the last 24 years.
Ammunition has improved in the last 24 years.
Dragonsblood
Bearcat
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Someone said this before but I'll reiterate, handgun bullets suck compared to rifles and shotguns in terms of stopping power. However, when the proverbial brown stuff hits the fan, and one could only get access to a 9mm pistol, then I don't think there's anyone on this forum, or on this PLANET, that would rather give up than fight back simply because the gun in question wasn't their pet carry caliber (pacifists non-withstanding). Besides, regardless of what the bad guys are packing, the first I will do is FIND COVER if all possible and launch hot lead on my way there. How many perps and terrorists have been dropped by 9mm rounds? As bad as I want another 345, 17 shots from an SR9 will keep one in the fight longer IMO. Go to YouTube and type in "navy seals mp5 and pistol" and listen to a SEAL trainer's opinion on the 9mm.
aaronrb204
Bearcat
I have always looked at it this way: 9x19 has been working since 1902. It has killed a lot of people and it isn't going to stop anytime soon. And there is a reason why it is used by more militaries and police than any other handgun caliber. If they can trust it then so can I.
9mm ammo is more cost effective for me, The more ammo I can afford the more practice I can get making me more profficent with my weapon. A good hit with a 9mm is alot better that a bad hit with a .45 or .40. So when I recive my cpl I will carry my SR9. For protction at home I will pick up my Mossberg 835 with 3" 00 buck shot or the remington 7400 30-06.
2ndamd":3nys9r17 said:Hahaha!
That's funny!
Does the FBI Miami/Dade shootout concern me with carrying a 9mm? Hahaha!
Seriously now for a minute; No. The shootout does not concern me with carrying a 9mm.
Now, ask me if I am concerned with some of the decisions made by the FBI that fateful day? YES!!!!!!!!
It was tactics and not equipment that lost the lives that day.
Maybe no one should carry a revolver either. I mean one Agent got hit in the hand with a .223 round fired from a mini-14. He had a peice of his hand bone embedded into the cylinder of the revolver which caused it to jam. What are the odds of that happening again?
I am glad that we learned so much from the poorly planned and poorly
executed day. I hope we do not have to repeat the BIG mistakes made that day.
ps by the way, carrying a 9mm and .38's that day were NOT the BIG mistakes
With all respect to everybody, my post wasn't: "Evaluate the FBI shootout." I wanted to reference one thing from that shoot out, their findings that they felt they should adopt a more powerful round.
I did state that 9mm ammunition has improved since then. So have a number of handgun ammunitions. But, the FBI and many LE agencies have not returned to 9mm.
So, considering that the FBI changed from 9mm to rounds that they considered more effective, do you feel comfortable using 9mm for self defense? If so, why?
I hope this clarifies everything.
2ndamd":3g1y24if said:Hahaha!
That's funny!
Does the FBI Miami/Dade shootout concern me with carrying a 9mm? Hahaha!
Seriously now for a minute; No. The shootout does not concern me with carrying a 9mm.
Now, ask me if I am concerned with some of the decisions made by the FBI that fateful day? YES!!!!!!!!
It was tactics and not equipment that lost the lives that day.
Maybe no one should carry a revolver either. I mean one Agent got hit in the hand with a .223 round fired from a mini-14. He had a peice of his hand bone embedded into the cylinder of the revolver which caused it to jam. What are the odds of that happening again?
I am glad that we learned so much from the poorly planned and poorly executed day. I hope we do not have to repeat the BIG mistakes made that day.
ps by the way, carrying a 9mm and .38's that day were NOT the BIG
mistakes
I never said they were the BIG mistakes. I also read of the agent who was killed while trying to load his revolver.
.
Recommend...
Carry the Rohrbaugh 9mm with FMJ as a second backup.
Primary is a S&W 29 with 250-grain Keith's @ 1,200 fps.
First backup is a full-size Gov't 1911 with 230-grain hardball.
Keep within reach a 12 gauge with 000 buck and slugs and a M1 Garand with bayonet.
The Quad-50 if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Nuclear devices at the ready.
Now who's that at the door ?
Did some wimp say somethin' 'bout over-penetration ?
.
Recommend...
Carry the Rohrbaugh 9mm with FMJ as a second backup.
Primary is a S&W 29 with 250-grain Keith's @ 1,200 fps.
First backup is a full-size Gov't 1911 with 230-grain hardball.
Keep within reach a 12 gauge with 000 buck and slugs and a M1 Garand with bayonet.
The Quad-50 if it makes you feel more comfortable.
Nuclear devices at the ready.
Now who's that at the door ?
Did some wimp say somethin' 'bout over-penetration ?
.
Yosemite Sam
Hunter
Don't forget the five extra magazines, 3 speed loaders, bear spray, "tactical" knife (must be black and scary looking), 1025 lumen flashlight and body armor. And that's just the load out to go get milk at the corner store.
-- Sam
-- Sam
Mike J":2c63v4cm said:
I agree partially with you. I don't think a totally honest gun evaluation has been done in a gun magazine that has that gun maker as an advertising customer.
I do not see why an article on news items would be incorrect. I got the impression that you don't trust gun magazines, regarding the shoot out, but you do trust the Internet. Even if you read the FBI's review of the shoot out, I wouldn't trust it as they may feel the need to not report all mistakes by their agents.
Guppy
Bearcat
No. Everyone gets hung up on the caliber debate. The reality is that they are all only handguns and are inadequate. The reality is that anything short of a CNS hit still leaves plenty of reaction time for a determined individual to try to kill you. It is not uncommon to find folks involved in a shoot out who recieved several wounds that would have proven fatal several yards or even blocks away from the scene. The best bet in any life and death confrontation is fast accurate hits until thej opposition is down. While caliber may play a tiny role in truly stopping someone. Multiple hits are better and the 9mm lets me make them quicker..
Got a Glock in the bedside tableHammer":mdmhlf57 said:
Machine gun leaning by the bedroom door
Kevlar vest in the closet
Well, I wear it when I go to the store
Shadows on the window
Rustling in the hedge
Faces at the peephole
Footsteps on the ledge
If you come calling, he'll be mauling with intent to maim
Don't knock on my door if you don't know my Rottweiler's name
Halogen lights in the driveway
Guardian Angels living next door
One hundred pounds of unfriendly persuasion
Sleeping on the Florida porch
Slackers in the market
Bangers in the mall
Skinheads on the golf course
Hunting for their balls
If you come calling, he'll be mauling with intent to maim
So don't knock on my door if you don't know my Rottweiler's name.
--"Rottweiler Blues," Warren Zevon, Mutineer, 1995
owsi-You are right-I don't have much faith in the gun rags. I do tend to think all handguns are underpowered. I believe shot placement is more important than caliber. I saw a story the other day about a guy hit 4 times with a .45 that went to the hospital-got took care of & went home.
My experience with what little bit of hunting I have done is that if I shoot a deer in the neck it is dead right there, if I shoot it in the lungs/ heart I will find it within 25 to 30 yards usually where it kicks out. That is using a .30-06 on white tails. Handgun calibers are no where near as powerful as it is. A lot can happen in the time it takes a deer to run 25 yards. I'm not saying a .45 can't be better-it might give a slight edge but I do believe shot placement is more important than caliber. If you disagree that is fine that's just my opinion.
BTW- Cool lyrics Snake somehow I missed that tune.
My experience with what little bit of hunting I have done is that if I shoot a deer in the neck it is dead right there, if I shoot it in the lungs/ heart I will find it within 25 to 30 yards usually where it kicks out. That is using a .30-06 on white tails. Handgun calibers are no where near as powerful as it is. A lot can happen in the time it takes a deer to run 25 yards. I'm not saying a .45 can't be better-it might give a slight edge but I do believe shot placement is more important than caliber. If you disagree that is fine that's just my opinion.
BTW- Cool lyrics Snake somehow I missed that tune.
Richbaker
Blackhawk
EricandSuebee":25hw03q6 said:
Actually, they had 2 shotguns.... 1 was in the back seat of the car. The other was employed, one-handed, to help end the fight.....
The biggest problem was that 2 of the agents pulled their guns and set them on the car seat in one case, and in his lap in the other. The one on the seat got stuck under his accelerator pedal. The one in the lap went out the door when it opened on impact.....
Here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
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