Does the famous FBI shoot-out concern you by carrying a 9mm.

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Spad

Bearcat
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
9
Location
Kennewick, Wa
Resident, Ship pilots work on ships, they get to the ship by boat usually, sometimes choppers and they work outside harbors too. Can't let that error go buy. :lol: As to the original question, I'd carry my .458 African rifle, but it doesn't fit in my pocket and makes a loud noise too. The Miami incident is good to study, but remember as a citizen you are not normally in a firefight, but a defensive posture, I find the 9mm will be more then adequate, especially with todays better ammo. That said there is nothing wrong with the Winchester Silvertip or Winchesters newer stuff, or Federal, Corbon. The Winchester Silvertip did its job in that Miami shoot out, but the agents were outgunned. Spad
 

resident

Single-Sixer
Joined
Apr 3, 2010
Messages
412
Spad":iki8zvav said:
Resident, Ship pilots work on ships, they get to the ship by boat usually, sometimes choppers and they work outside harbors too. Can't let that error go buy. :lol: .... Spad
I guess I deserve that, since I played the semantics-card. I started to not mention harbor-entrance, and I also started to use "ship"...but that is also inaccurate, as pilots also work on tugs, barges, and.....BOATS (such as Untersee-types) :wink:
 

Spad

Bearcat
Joined
Oct 25, 2008
Messages
9
Location
Kennewick, Wa
Der untersee type only got der pilot when dey is coming to der harbor. unless it is der German untersee boat, den they goot der pilot as a watchstander, he is a different kinda da pilot. My frau tells besides being der ship pilot I'm also der pilot here and pile it there. What this has to do with the Miami shoot-out I don't know, but have to pilot on. :D Spad
 

drewrw21

Bearcat
Joined
Jul 9, 2010
Messages
8
bub":16ul5vog said:
owsi26, I think that you are missing JohnKSa's point. I also think that some of your own reasoning is a little flawed.

If you are in a shootout and both parties are equally skilled and equally motivated, then it basically comes down to who makes the first shot that connects with a vital area. Stories abound of people with bullet wounds in non-vital areas (arms and legs) not even noticing in the heat of battle and going on to win. Stories abound about people having what turns out to be fatal wounds who also go on to win. In fact, the Miami Shootout comes to mind with this, too. I seem to remember that one of the perps had a shot that perforated his heart or tore the aorta or something similar. Fatal shot, but he was motivated enough to carry on with what he was doing for several minutes.

Also, I seem to remember reading several years ago that the Silvertips performed exactly like they were intended to perform. I seem to remember reading that several if the Silvertips were recovered just under the skin on the far side of the body from where the perps were shot. Bullets penetrated the torso, expended their energy and stopped just short of complete penetration- just about ideal performance, if you discount the fact that they failed to make a second hole. What they didn't do is to hit a structure vital enough to immediately end the fight, which basically means the brain or spinal cord. That is hardly the bullet's fault, don't you think?

The blame for that day rests solely in the FBI. They knew that Platt and Maddox were violent and I have read that they had a pretty good idea that there were long guns present. They failed to wait for backup and they failed to notify local authorities that they were even in the area, much less that they were going to do something like this. BAD PLANNING, pure and simple.

There was also poor training, or at least poor performance, on the part of the individual agents. Several drew their guns and put them under their thigh while driving but before the stop for quicker access. I have read that Platt or Maddox, whomever was driving, rammed several of the FBI's cars. During the collisions, the agents who had their guns under their thigh for quick access lost their guns and had to carry on with backup guns. While I don't think this had much to do with the outcome, I have yet to meet anyone who can shoot their backup as well as their primary gun. This may be a small contributing factor to all the missed shots by the FBI, but I honestly don't think it played much part. It's just an example of poor training, that they drew their guns and put them somewhere basically out of their control before the dance even started. If they had poor training there, who knows what other training was poor or what effect it had on the outcome?

They also had VERY poor coordination and typical FBI arrogance. By failing to notify ANYONE local that they were there, they robbed themselves of any chance for backup. Who knows how the outcome might have been different if they had a few more shooters with them, especially if the shooters had access to long guns? By failing to notify ANYONE that they were there and were going to pull the operation, they robbed themselves of the opportunity to find out and men died.

Last but not least, because of their attitudes, the agents were beaten before the incident even kicked off. Platt and Maddox went into the fight with the attitude that they were going to win. The FBI went into the fight with the attitude that it was just another job. Because of this, Platt and Maddox basically won. They died, but before they did, they wiped out the FBI's force. Quite a few of the agents lived, but they were worthless as a fighting force after the incident was over. The survivors were wounded and shocked that the fight turned out the way that it did and, had there been a 3rd bad guy, I honestly think that ALL the agents would have been killed. Looking at it as a small unit action and taking the motivations of the parties out of it, it was a classic small unit action. A force of two men managed to hold off and at least psychologically defeat a much larger force. The decision to blame the ammo was a whitewash by the FBI to cover up their own incompetence and bumbling.

IMO, I think that the handgun and ammo choices were the smallest factor, if they were even a factor at all. Handguns are notoriously poor stoppers, no matter what the caliber. Cops carry handguns for one reason and one reason only- convenience. In the course of a normal day, it's a LOT easier to carry a handgun than it is to carry a long gun. Caliber wars make absolutely no sense at all because, when you get right down to it, there's not a bunch of difference at all in the performance of handgun ammo. 9mm, .40, .45, they all perform about the same, statistically. The best you can do is to train as best you can, choose the best ammo you can and plan for the bad guy to not drop when hit and have a backup plan for this. Keep shooting till the threat is neutralized, no matter what you are carrying, and boogie out of there ASAP.

In the interest of full disclosure, I carry a Glock 21 in .45 when on duty at my PD job. Having said that, I would have no problem carrying a 9mm and, in fact, carry a 2 1/4" SP101 when off duty. It's not about the hardware, it's about the user.

Bub


I agree with this 100%, well said!
 

shawn mccarver

Bearcat
Joined
Aug 18, 2009
Messages
11
owsi26":1e83fi2m said:
I'm sure all of you are aware of this shoot-out where agents were killed. Some were shooting, the then standard, 9mm. The FBI later changed to .40. Many LE agencies also changed to .40.

Ammunition has improved since then, including 9mm and other calibers. But, most LE agencies have not returned to 9mm.

Considering that LEO's have put their trust in larger calibers than 9mm, do you put your trust in 9mm?

(Revised post)

In a full sized, duty type, pistol, why would you NOT want a .40? They are typically the same size as the 9mm (for example, Glock 17 and 22, or S&W M&P, etc. - I would have used Ruger for example, but the NEW SR40 is not out yet!).

The 9mm makes a nice understudy and ammo is lower cost than .40, so it is good for practice.

The 9mm also shines in the compacts.

Bottom line is that 9mm might be slightly better than a 38 special +P. If you like the 38 special +P, then think of your duty pistol as a 16 or 18 shot 38 special +P (I suppose NYPD looks at it this way).

If you like the bigger calibers, then the 9mm will not satisfy.

Remember, no one says "is the .45 ACP as good as the 9mm?" It always comes down, in these discussions, to whether the 9mm or the .40 S&W are as good as a .45.
 

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